Half Brother/Sister Cross??

[sanfordssj]

DCJ,

Inbreeding is the way to go if your trying to create a consistent line of good hounds. Only outcross occasionaly to add something you think you maybe missing and then go back in tight breeding.
Total outcrosses have produced some outstanding hounds but what have those outstanding hounds produced? in comparison to line bred hounds.

Please tell us what inbreeding has produced........

Outcrossing has produced some outstanding hounds, and many of them have gone on to be great producers themselves............Not sure what you base your assertion that great hounds dont produce???

Mybeagles

Branko blood....enough said.

[mybeagles]

Ive looked at a great number of Branko pedigree's, don't recall seeing many inbreedings, and most of the line breeding is pretty loose.

I havent followed many of Branko's pedigree's lately, can anyone confirm or deny that he is consistently inbreeding??

Mybeagles

[sanfordssj]

Ive looked at a great number of Branko pedigree's, don't recall seeing many inbreedings, and most of the line breeding is pretty loose.

I havent followed many of Branko's pedigree's lately, can anyone confirm or deny that he is consistently inbreeding??

Mybeagles

Not consistently, but has done it with sucess, and its one of the few that can be seen in a few big pedigrees. Plus it all depends on what each person considers inbreeding or line breeding.

just a few off the top of my head:
Branko Double Ann = father x daughter
Branko Spikey = father daughter
a bounch of father x daughter crosses (heli-prop crosses)

Branko has the blue print that i follow, and as far as Im concerned is the best out there with how he line breeds his bloodline.

[mybeagles]

Seems to me it would be much easier for a kennel like Branko's to line breed based on the sheer number of dogs to choose from. When you have 50 cousins to the dog your crossing versus 1 or 2. Hard for me to envision someone emulating his program without the kennel size to back it.

For the average kennel of 10 or less dogs, I find it dificult to have the selection to line breed, let alone inbreed. I can't make myself breed to a male I own, if I know for a fact someone has one that is better.

Not looking to cause trouble, but I seldom see tangible evidence that the inbreeding programs are working, but Im always watching!

What has been more evident are the "kennel reductions sales" and "selling out" ads 1-2 generations after launching into inbreeding plans.

Of course the BIG question is, how do you measure success??? Are the dogs better than the parents? Are they doing well in competition? Do they rise above the other dogs you pack them with (in your hunting group)? Do you hit dead ends or end up with worthless litters? The same questions could be asked with outcrosses as well.

Mybeagles

[BCBeagles]

The line I am choosing to possibly do this on has been bred for several years, in the range of 25 years or more, based off of a couple dogs. I don't know about the competition realm, but they will consistantly bring a rabbit back to the gun and that is how I measure them. Some require competition to base there breedings on and I, personally, couldn't give a crap less about any title at all! I have bred to the IFC title with hope of getting what I wanted and to be honest I could have bred to one of my males and had the same or probably better results, JMO. It is all in what satisfies the one taking them to the woods. Good hunting to all.

[sanfordssj]

Seems to me it would be much easier for a kennel like Branko's to line breed based on the sheer number of dogs to choose from. When you have 50 cousins to the dog your crossing versus 1 or 2. Hard for me to envision someone emulating his program without the kennel size to back it.

For the average kennel of 10 or less dogs, I find it dificult to have the selection to line breed, let alone inbreed. I can't make myself breed to a male I own, if I know for a fact someone has one that is better.

Not looking to cause trouble, but I seldom see tangible evidence that the inbreeding programs are working, but Im always watching!

What has been more evident are the "kennel reductions sales" and "selling out" ads 1-2 generations after launching into inbreeding plans.

Of course the BIG question is, how do you measure success??? Are the dogs better than the parents? Are they doing well in competition? Do they rise above the other dogs you pack them with (in your hunting group)? Do you hit dead ends or end up with worthless litters? The same questions could be asked with outcrosses as well.

Mybeagles

good post

what does it matter if you have 50 cousins or 1 cousin? A cousin is a cousin. Same goes for uncles and nieces. I kind of agree with you on the fact that it would be difficult to have the "best" selection in a kennel with 10 dogs or less, but there is more that goes into that though process that you are missing. You would have to watch these dogs to know if they are better than what you have....i have seen way to many hyped dogs that I consider junk. Knowing this, and knowing what "my" dogs bring to the table I would not hesitate to line breed my dogs first. I'm not big on "inbreeding at all", but I really like line breeding. I would like to try a father x daughter cross one day, but I'm in no position to keep an entire litter in order to see what i got, so I will prop never do it.

[mybeagles]

they will consistantly bring a rabbit back to the gun and that is how I measure them

Thats as good a guage as you can find......I would add, the ones that can do it in tough conditions!

I don't need a title to breed to a dog, but I have observed when someone comes up with a phenominal dog they seek out competition because they know they have a dog that will dominate.

Some could care less about the titles......I could care less about the pedigree. If they happen to be related fine, but I would never breed to dogs just because they are related.

BCBeagles, what line of dogs are you talking about going back 25 years?

Mybeagles

[Lone Pine Beagles]

Mybeagles:

Branko Pedigrees...

It looks like Branko started with one female "Anna's Ann".
His pedigrees look like several crosses of her descendants.
I counted 17 crosses of Ann in a branko ped.
It works if used right.

Best to the best!

LPB

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Just some food for thought.
Where the sire and dam each have all 4 grandparents in common brings together one-half of the line through the sire and the other half through the dam resulting in all inheritance coming from the same line.This occurs in such matings as brother to sister,first cousin to double first cousin,etc. and is the most intensive in-breeding.
If two mates each have 3 grandparents in common or 2 parents and 2 grandparents in common the result is one-half of the line through one parent and one quarter through the other, which = three- fourths of the family line. Example would be father x daughter and mother x son.
If the sire is also a grandparent of the dam the result is half of the line through the sire and one -eighth through the dam or five-eighths of the family line.
The sire and dam each having 2 grandparents in common brings on one-fourth of the line through each parent for a total of one-half of the family line.Half brother to half sister is such a mating.


I've been at this hound dog game for a lot of years and many years ago an old time bear and cat hunter told me that of all the crosses he made he had the least success with half-brother x sister as well as first cousin crosses.The reason being simply random variation.With first cousin and half brother x sister,there are too many unknown combinations possible.He felt that if you were trying to capture the attributes of a particular hound in their background then you had to tighten it up in the breeding such as a father x daughter,mother x son cross or a not as close uncle x niece, nephew x aunt cross.
The more unrelated dogs you can eliminate on the pedigree the closer you can come to capturing the traits of the dog you seek.With a half-brother x sister cross you have two completely unrelated dogs on each side.

[sanfordssj]

Just some food for thought.
Where the sire and dam each have all 4 grandparents in common brings together one-half of the line through the sire and the other half through the dam resulting in all inheritance coming from the same line.This occurs in such matings as brother to sister,first cousin to double first cousin,etc. and is the most intensive in-breeding.
If two mates each have 3 grandparents in common or 2 parents and 2 grandparents in common the result is one-half of the line through one parent and one quarter through the other, which = three- fourths of the family line. Example would be father x daughter and mother x son.
If the sire is also a grandparent of the dam the result is half of the line through the sire and one -eighth through the dam or five-eighths of the family line.
The sire and dam each having 2 grandparents in common brings on one-fourth of the line through each parent for a total of one-half of the family line.Half brother to half sister is such a mating.


I've been at this hound dog game for a lot of years and many years ago an old time bear and cat hunter told me that of all the crosses he made he had the least success with half-brother x sister as well as first cousin crosses.The reason being simply random variation.With first cousin and half brother x sister,there are too many unknown combinations possible.He felt that if you were trying to capture the attributes of a particular hound in their background then you had to tighten it up in the breeding such as a father x daughter,mother x son cross or a not as close uncle x niece, nephew x aunt cross.
The more unrelated dogs you can eliminate on the pedigree the closer you can come to capturing the traits of the dog you seek.With a half-brother x sister cross you have two completely unrelated dogs on each side.

here's a cross like your talking about:

---------------------------------------MTN VALLEY RAE FLASH (4 crosses Dingus)
---------------------LPGRCH HOF MATHEW DILLIAN MACRAE
---------------------------------------HILL’S SHAKE RAG GIBBY
-------LPRCH S&S HEAD’S UP MARSHAL DILAN
---------------------------------------STEWARDS BO DIDLEY
---------------------LPGRCH STEWARD’S PLAIN JANE
----------------------------------------STEWARDS BODACIOS SUE
LPGBCH LPRCH S&S HEAD’S UP BELLA
---------------------------------------MTN VALLEY RAE FLASH (4 crosses Dingus)
---------------------LPGRCH HILL’S SHAKE RAG APAC
---------------------------------------HILL’SHAKER RAG GIBBY
--------HILL’S SHAKE RAG GIN
--------------------------------------STEWARDS BO DIDLEY
---------------------STEWARDS BODACIOS SISSY
------------------------------------- STEWARDS BODACIOS SUE

[BCBeagles]

Mybeagles,

I am talking about the hounds I own based off the stock from Larry Perry's original hounds. Heavy in Dingus and Indian Hills. Larry did a lot of line breeding and I was just thinking maybe I could tighten up the line with the cross I have the question on? I am no breeding expert and want to have the opinions of those that have been there and done that. The original dogs Larry based his stuff off of where crossed in several variations off of Dingus and Majer. These hounds were mostly put to the test by gunhunters and not trialers. I like what I have in them. Great hunt, accountability, and toughness. They can get things done in the rough times, but not like some other lines. I hope to incorporate some Ranger Dan blood in the right hounds to increase nose and add more line control. Time will tell if I can get that accomplished. Thanks again for all the feedback!!

[haredawg]

I"ll put another twist on this for you I have and in-bred male ( father X daughter ) and a in-bred female ( father x daughter )
that's also half brother half sister cross she had 5 pups 1 F 4 M they are gonna be 8wks old monday gave the runt away today for a special needs boy keeping the others for myself,got home today had the mother running loose along with the pups had 3 pups and no mother and 1 pup missing,followed tracks out to the road in the snow then lost them figured someone stole them started walking back and the mother is coming accross the field from the north 1/2 mile away so I go get snowshoes and hike back over to where she just came from made a big loop following tracks I happened to stop and heard a faint whine found the pup lucky for him cause it's -8 deg and 1/2 mile from home he might not have made it but he's gonna be one to watch going that far this young.

[eddywilliams]

You wont have dissimilar dogs if you are linebreeding top and bottom

[sanfordssj]

You wont have dissimilar dogs if you are linebreeding top and bottom

Eddy give us your opinion here! I know you have line bred the branko line and had good results. What have you learned that you like verses what you dont like? What do you outcross for and do you seek a male to gain the need or do you use a female? Tuna pups are hitting the ground and looking good, but are you selective with the females (bloodlines) you are breeding with? Is Tuna producing when line bred, or when outcrossed?

[Moore Beagles]

I think this cross has all of the ingredients to be a goodone. First off you know the hounds really well and thier linage. Half brother and Half Sister crosses are common in breeding programs, it helps to lock in favorable Known traits, and adds to the repeatabilty to your line. Linebreeding and inbreeding are one of the best methods to a desired result.
I was gonna keep Quiet on this, but I can't Stands no more, because MTN VALLEY RAE FLASH is THE Dog I point to show how tight some of these lines are breed. He is directly out of Mtn-Valley Super Sport & Mtn-Valley Geisha Girl (A Full brother to Full Sister cross) & both of them are directly out of the same half brother and half sister crosses Top & Bottom.

No you shouldn't breed just off of pedigrees, but with a knowledge of the pedigree lineage and on the individual traits that a dog carries. Believe me, there are breeds and other bloodlines as tight as this.

I might just be in line for one of these Pups!