Snow Hounds??

[NorWester1]

Where abouts did you see these Spicer Blueback hounds run?

[bluegrass]

I had some Spicers Blueback stuff here several years ago, and they COULD run in snow and rough conditions, BUT the stuff I am running now is MUCH better...I had more losses and more sporadic runs back then according to some of my hunting journals...

Gotta love that Ranger Dan line for rough conditions.
Striker/Larsens stuff speaks for itself too.




Tony

[Schag]

I have witnessed probably about 10-15 dogs directly out of Spicer's Blueback in the snow and gun hunted under them as well. I had one that died recently directly out of Spicer's Blueback that could run in almost anything. I have a hound here out of MJR Mitsou Zoro (Striker's Littermate) X Larson bred female that does not run as well as my Blueback hound did on snow. He does pretty good on snow, but not as well. I did witness a few of the Blueback hounds that were mouthy when tracking was good, but some of them had the brains to know "when to say when" as well.

[NorWester1]

Ok, but where was that, Ohio?
In your opinion what were the traits that set them apart as far as being able to run in snow better than anything else you had or perhaps saw?

[NorWester1]

...... and what was Spicer' Blueback descended from?

[Schag]

I guess when I answered the question, I was not sure if he was talking what region/state, etc. But, we do get powdery snow in Ohio, and I have seen very few that can consistantly run rabbits in snow like that regardless of any factor. Most of the days that you need a BIG nose hound, cottontails will hole anyway, but there are days that they stay up long enough to evaluate the hounds for their accomplishments or lack thereof.

The traits that I saw from the Blueback hounds (only the ones I saw for myself) are as follows:

1. Most had Above average noses. Some had enough brains to know when to say when.
2. Grit.
3. Patience and stick in the check. Not bounding off to find another rabbit.
4. Sense of direction (although I did see a couple that at times fooled themselves. )

As far as Blueback and his pedigree, I am not sure. Do a search on here and you will find it was questioned time and again. I am staying out of that one, because I do not rightly know. I have seen a lot of hounds in my time, never in the terrain in which you probably run, but I was only giving my opinion on what I have witnessed first hand. I do know this, it seems that including my own hounds, hounds of today may not have the nose they use to. Or maybe my memory is lacking.

By the way, I also had a hound years ago out of Spur that had a big nose.

[Casey Harner]

Gotta love that Ranger Dan line for rough conditions.
Striker/Larsens stuff speaks for itself too.




Tony

[Joeyman]

I don't understand why you keep coming south to get your pups then. Yottie's bitch come out of South Ill., Johnston Beagle farm.

I've been there before. that place is nuts.

[NorWester1]

I guess when I answered the question, I was not sure if he was talking what region/state, etc. But, we do get powdery snow in Ohio, and I have seen very few that can consistantly run rabbits in snow like that regardless of any factor. Most of the days that you need a BIG nose hound, cottontails will hole anyway, but there are days that they stay up long enough to evaluate the hounds for their accomplishments or lack thereof.

The traits that I saw from the Blueback hounds (only the ones I saw for myself) are as follows:

1. Most had Above average noses. Some had enough brains to know when to say when.
2. Grit.
3. Patience and stick in the check. Not bounding off to find another rabbit.
4. Sense of direction (although I did see a couple that at times fooled themselves. )

As far as Blueback and his pedigree, I am not sure. Do a search on here and you will find it was questioned time and again. I am staying out of that one, because I do not rightly know. I have seen a lot of hounds in my time, never in the terrain in which you probably run, but I was only giving my opinion on what I have witnessed first hand. I do know this, it seems that including my own hounds, hounds of today may not have the nose they use to. Or maybe my memory is lacking.

By the way, I also had a hound years ago out of Spur that had a big nose.

While I certainly have my own opinion as to what constitutes a "snowhound" and did ask so I could get an idea as to the conditions to which you were referring, I wasn't passing judgement on what you've seen or experienced. I always keep my "nose to the ground" so to speak, when talk of winter running and the hounds that do well in it comes up.
I've never heard of Spicer's Blueback so my interest was peaked when you wrote of them as a line of hounds that was consistently producing nose power..

[eddywilliams]

Two sundays back we ran my Tuna dog and my Northway gyp Stella from Kormony Kennels and 3 young dogs out of Tuna .It was about 20 degrees with a windchill of 10 ,lake effect snow and 4 to 5 inches of powdery snow .It was tough but we jumped 5 ,2 circled a couple times while bagging one .Tuna is Ranger Dan bred on top and has an excellent nose as does Stella .The pups also done well while contributing to the chase inadverse conditions.

[Schag]

Norwester 1,

I did not take your questioning the wrong way, and I hope my response did not come off like I know everything because I certainly do not. Hounds with big noses and brains to go with it in my area are hard to come by. I have only had two dogs in many years of beagling that I would call a "big nose". I hear guys say when their dog is babbling and nothing else is putting in and they do not produce in a sufficiate time that "he has a big nose". I would say no, the other dogs just have bigger brains. With that being said, for example, when a line is marked and he is the only dog able to lift scent to keep the run going, now that is a dog with a good nose. I would like to add some nose power to dogs in my kennel as long as they have the brains to go along with it. I don't like a mouthy dog, but I do like a dog that can run one when others can't, I just have a hard time finding them.

Blueback dogs did consistently bring the rabbit to the gun the years that I witnessed them.

[ohlinger]

Norwester 1,

I did not take your questioning the wrong way, and I hope my response did not come off like I know everything because I certainly do not. Hounds with big noses and brains to go with it in my area are hard to come by. I have only had two dogs in many years of beagling that I would call a "big nose". I hear guys say when their dog is babbling and nothing else is putting in and they do not produce in a sufficiate time that "he has a big nose". I would say no, the other dogs just have bigger brains. With that being said, for example, when a line is marked and he is the only dog able to lift scent to keep the run going, now that is a dog with a good nose. I would like to add some nose power to dogs in my kennel as long as they have the brains to go along with it. I don't like a mouthy dog, but I do like a dog that can run one when others can't, I just have a hard time finding them.

Blueback dogs did consistently bring the rabbit to the gun the years that I witnessed them.

Can't agree with this statement anymore than i do right now!!

Too many mouthy dogs get credited for having a big nose....not at all they are just dumb dogs. A dog with nose power will show you rabbits despite the conditons. well said schag

[NorWester1]

Schag wrote,

I would like to add some nose power to dogs in my kennel as long as they have the brains to go along with it. I don't like a mouthy dog, but I do like a dog that can run one when others can't, I just have a hard time finding them

Everyone does. Good luck with that

I've never seen one that had an "honest" mouth in ideal conditions but could run in winter's worst. I hunt in some pretty tough conditions however, but I'll say that again.....
I've never seen a dog with a deadpan honest mouth run when things get tough here.
Not one.
Don't take my word for it though, ask any hunter looking to run consistently in tough winter conditions.
If someone has one I'd sure like to see it, and I don't mean that in a condescending manner, I really would like to see one.

No one wants to believe this and quite frankly I don't care one way or the other.
On saying that, doesn't anyone find it curious that all these "honest mouth", big nose advocates hunt and run in very favorable conditions?
Doesn't anyone find it curious alot of them, like yourself Schag, feel that nose power is being lost in a good majority of beagles, yet won't tolerate some of the baggage that come with breeding for serious nose power?

[bluegrass]

NorWester1, that is the most honest depiction of a true power nosed hound I have ever heard. There's no doubt that you run in more extreme weather than I do, but even with the blowing snow, ice and sub zero conditions I have here its a FACT that you have to have a big nosed hound to get it done consistently. I haven't always lived in Michigan, my early years of running hounds came down in Kentucky and Ohio...back then I didn't need the type of hound I have now. I could hunt just fine with a "true mouthed" hound...no babblers, only bark when the rabbit was up and hot...and I brought that same attitude with me here and expected hounds to perform in Michigan the same way they could in Kentucky...and it didn't happen CONSISTENTLY. This isnt to slam those types of hounds. To get it done here and other cold weather extreme areas I believe you must have a big nosed hound to have CONSISTENT success. I also agree that you have to allow for the so called faults that come with those types of hounds.

I had a Striker female at an ARHA LP trial once here in Michigan and our cast went out first, 8am and the temp was 4 degrees above 0. A light dusting of snow had fallen overnight, but it was clear and cold, slightly windy with a windchill well below 0. Larsen's Bell was a true BIG NOSED hound...she would cold trail when conditions were "ideal". She would sometimes drive you crazy with it too, but more often than not jumped what she trailed. This particular morning however she could shine. I had switched collar colors at the last second before the cast let loose because I had MY blue collar on her so the judge switched the white collar he gave me initially with the blue collar dog...midway through the cast he called out saying he needed the white collar dog. MY dog had been barking a running bark almost the whole cast, and since I ORIGINALLY had white on her, I forgot we switched and assumed he needed me to pick up Bell. I came up to him and just as I got to him the white collar dog blew past me and then I remembered the switch...longer story short Bell wound up outscoring the next closest dog in that cast by almost 100pts. Someone asked if she was just babbling and maybe the judge had been fooled, the judges exact words were these "If I had not seen the rabbit several times I would have believed she was cold trailing, but I saw the dang rabbit all morning"


Bell outperformed the other dogs by being a true cold, power nosed hound. She was beaten later in the day when it warmed up by one check (which I STILL argue was a rip off, LOL) but proved to me right then that I was willing to tolerate a little so called babbling for true extreme weather performance.


Tony

[Schag]

I guess I did not clarify myself very well. I have had the dogs with the "big noses" who cold trailed every time put on the ground and I will not tolerate it. Yes the dog could run a rabbit that was up when others could not, however, he could not keep his mouth shut before jump. When I said I have only had two dogs with what I call a true "big nose" that is with the brains included knowing like I said "when to say when". The one female I had I called a liar many times when the pack came through and she is running line while packmates are mute, but to my dismay the rabbit was seen creeping in front of the pack in tough conditions. I witnessed her do this time and time again with some pretty nice hounds being ran against her. She would not babble on good days and could keep her head. I gave her away to a gun hunter who said she was the best little dog he ever had. I gave her away because she had seizures and I did not want her for a breeding female because of it. Her AKC papers were ripped so that she could not pass on the seizures, not sure that she would have, but did not want to chance it.

The second "big nose" hound that I had was my old Blueback dog that recently died. He had the brains to go with that big nose and in ten years of owning that hound I could count on one hand the days he opened a few times and did not produce. I am not talking about babbling, just opening a few times then realizes it was too old. I was hunting in a swamp area close to my house with him and the Zoro male (young at the time) with a friend. The conditions were terrible and it was probably too cold for us to be out, but we were there. Anyway, the swamp was frozen, you could hear toenails clicking on the ice, and the rabbit that they had been running went past us a couple times with the old Blueback dog only giving mouth for about 100 or more yards on the ice. The Zoro hound to his credit, shut his mouth because he just could not lift scent and went along for the ride until he could smell it good enough to chime in. The chase went on like this when the Zoro hound could not get it, then he would chime in when he could smell it. Snow, ice, wind, VERY cold, not favorable conditions. In a nut shell, I cannot find a hound with a true big nose and the brains to go with it. I have been doing this for some time now, and often wonder why I am still doing it, but two hounds in the years that I have ran I would say had the brains and the nose. If someone has it, I would also like to see it because I am not lucky enough to have it.