What do you think about this breeding?

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

I have never bred full littermates,even though its not out of the question. I do how ever believe breeding awfully close then jumping to another cross thats strong bred is the answer to the question for me. Even though most will disagree i have now made the cross which will produce several generations of productive hounds for me and thats all i care about, not who breeds to anything i own. Taking a look at several dogs out there, Blairs Tom Dog is definetly a canidate for a definete out cross for those needing hunt and all day strengh. Think about this,When you breed ur bitch to your choice of stud was it for complimenting your line and or finding what you lack with your bitch? Its not a loaded question only a thought.

We could go on for days with different answers. But bottom lines is why cant the dogs i kill rabbits with win trials? I think alot of todays fellas forgot about killing rabbits, i aint.So many formats got rule readers and not rabbit slayers.Its really all common sense. I think i could get a drunk outta a bar take him let him hunt a day or two with me andhe would be able to tell me the best dog at the end of the day, I use my line you fellas use whosever line ya wanna call it for just rabbit dogs that hunt well day in and day out.No more or no less. So once again when ya make that next cross dont let certain lines influnce your better judgement dont be afraid to ask questions, the choice you make make win the world or be a total waste of air,Just saying.Good luck to all.

[old blood beagles]

Useful Information About Line Breeding

A very liberally edited version of an article by Jerold S. Bell, D.V.M. that appeared in the September 1992 American Kennel Club Gazette, "The Ins and Outs of Pedigree Analysis, Genetic Diversity, and Genetic Disease Control" ... followed by some personal observations.

Without exception all breeds of dogs are the result of inbreeding. Inbreeding has either occurred through natural selection among a small isolated population (i.e. the dingo) or through the influence of man breeding selected animals to derive specific traits. Either way intensive inbreeding is responsible for setting enough of the dominant traits that the resulting group breeds true to type. At which point a population of dogs can be said to be a breed.

Dogs actually have more genes than humans. Tens of thousands of genes interact to produce a single dog. All genes are inherited in pairs, one from the sire and one from the dame. If the inherited genes from both parents are identical they are said to be homozygous. If the pair of inherited genes are not similar they are said to be heterozygous. The gene pairs that make a German Shorthair breed true to type are obviously homozygous. However, variable gene pairs like those that control coat color, size, scenting ability, etc. are still heterozygous within the breed as a whole.

Linebreeding concentrates the genes of a specific ancestor or ancestors through their appearance multiple times in a pedigree. When a specific ancestor appears more than once behind at least one animal on both the sire's side and yet another animal on the dame's side homozygosity for that animal's traits are possible.

However, if this specific ancestor appears only through a particular offspring of the ancestor in question then the Breeder is actually breeding on this offspring of the ancestor rather than on the ancestor itself. This is why having many "uncovered crosses" to a specific ancestor ( those that come through different offspring of this specific ancestor) gives the Breeder the greatest chance of making the desired traits of the specific ancestor homozygous.

Homozygosity greatly improves the chances that the resulting pups will in turn pass on the desired traits of the specific ancestor to their pups. When selecting pups from a line breed litter the Breeder must choose pups that display the desired traits of the specific ancestor or they have accomplished little. In fact, if these traits are not present in a linebred pup it is very likely that it inherited its genes from the remaining part of its pedigree and will be unable to breed true to type. Because the Breeder selected “out” for the pups that didn’t display this original ancestor’s traits.

Inbreeding significantly increases homozygosity, and therefore uniformity within a litter. One of the best methods of evaluating how successful a linebreeding has been is to gauge the similarity of the littermates as compared with pups of other litters with similar pedigrees. Considerable similarity among littermates tells the Breeder the genes have "nicked" or paired together as anticipated. The resulting pups will likely be able to pass these genes to the next generation.

Undesirable recessive genes are always masked by a dominant gene. Through inbreeding a rare recessive gene can be passed from a common ancestor on both the sire and the dame's side creating a homozygous recessive offspring. The resulting offspring actually displays the trait neither of their parents displayed ( even though both of them carried it ). Understand that inbreeding does not create undesirable genes it simply increases the chance that traits which are already present in a heterozygous state within the breed will be displayed.

Too many Breeders outcross as soon as an undesirable trait appears, blaming the problem on breeding "too close." Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact out-crossing insures that the undesirable trait will be carried generation after generation in a heterozygous recessive state only to rear its ugly head again and again. Therefore the Breeder who turns away from breeding “close” is simply passing a known problem on to succeeding generations and future Breeders.

When an undesirable trait is "unmasked" the Breeder who does his breed a real service is the one that stays with his line long enough to rid it of the undesirable trait. By controlling which specimens within their line are used for breeding in succeeding generations this Breeder can eliminate the undesirable trait. Once the recessive gene is removed it can never again affect the Breeder's line. Inbreeding doesn't cause good genes to mutate into bad genes it merely increases the likelihood that they will be displayed.

The Inbreeding Coefficient (or Wrights coefficient) is an estimate of the percentage of all variable genes that are homozygous due to inheritance from common ancestors. It is also the average chance that any single gene pair is homozygous due to inheritance from a common ancestor. Our pedigrees display the Inbreeding Coefficient for each dog in the first 4 generations of a specific dog's ancestry. Each Inbreeding Coefficient is calculated from that dog's 10 generation pedigree.

NOTE: Inbreeding does not cause good genes to somehow mutate - it only increases the likelihood that existing genes will be displayed - allowing the Breeder the chance to eliminate what had previously been unseen in their particular line although it was always present.

At Westwind GSPs we gauge the amount of homozygosity in an animal using their Inbreeding Coefficient (or Wrights Coefficient) - which can be seen as an estimate of the percentage of all variable genes that could be inherited from common ancestors. It is also give us a mathematical value for the average chance that any single gene pair is homozygous due to inheritance from a common ancestor.

Our pedigrees display the Inbreeding Coefficient for each dog in the first 4 generations of a specific dog's ancestry. However, the Inbreeding Coefficients displayed for each dog in our pedigrees is in turn calculated from that particular dog's 10 generation pedigree. We can trace most of our dogs back more than 20 generations – some as far back as 35 generations.

[J.C. Blair]

I have never bred full littermates,even though its not out of the question. I do how ever believe breeding awfully close then jumping to another cross thats strong bred is the answer to the question for me. Even though most will disagree i have now made the cross which will produce several generations of productive hounds for me and thats all i care about, not who breeds to anything i own. Taking a look at several dogs out there, Blairs Tom Dog is definetly a canidate for a definete out cross for those needing hunt and all day strengh. Think about this,When you breed ur bitch to your choice of stud was it for complimenting your line and or finding what you lack with your bitch? Its not a loaded question only a thought.

We could go on for days with different answers. But bottom lines is why cant the dogs i kill rabbits with win trials? I think alot of todays fellas forgot about killing rabbits, i aint.So many formats got rule readers and not rabbit slayers.Its really all common sense. I think i could get a drunk outta a bar take him let him hunt a day or two with me andhe would be able to tell me the best dog at the end of the day, I use my line you fellas use whosever line ya wanna call it for just rabbit dogs that hunt well day in and day out.No more or no less. So once again when ya make that next cross dont let certain lines influnce your better judgement dont be afraid to ask questions, the choice you make make win the world or be a total waste of air,Just saying.Good luck to all.

Phantom (Tom) is the genetic result of an uncle to niece cross made 3 consecutive times in a row.... now if that ain't inbreeding, don't know what to tell ya. I am wanting to say based on his %'s, he is almost the equivalent to a direct son of Spur, and around 15% IFC Mt Zion Pete, who has been dead for many, many years. I am using him on outcross females, with the latest being a Let Er Rip/Code Blue bitch. All the pups from that cross are gonna be in the starting pen soon. I'm no expert breeder, but I know and like a good dog.

[Tim H]

Good article Old blood beagles. Very readable for an article on a complex scientific subject.

[Emma's Beagles]

branko's double ann...branko's conman x branko's pretty pebbles...pebbles is a daughter of branko's conman.

branko's double ann was the mother of ifc branko's ali baba. look at how ali baba has reproduced, that was all set up by the tight breeding of his mother in my opinion.

also ifc branko's heli prop x branko's second hand rose... half mate breeding that in my opinion resulted in the best litter off of heli prop which incliuded fc branko's boonecreek trimmer, fc branko's proper tom cat, fc branko's proper lady-slipper.

fc branko's rabble rauser ifc branko's heli prop x branko's conna, another half mate thru jack.

im sure there are many others in different lines but im not that familiar with, this tight breeding can work if done right, but you better love what you have if you are going to breed this tight. its actually the only way that you can keep the blood that you have up close and tight in your kennel for years to come. to make a mother to son or vice versa cross you have to do it for the right reasons, first to get dogs that can reproduce, and you may get good performance dogs to but moe then likely it will be the next cross after such a tight breed. breeding this tight is a huge step to take, but well worth it if done correctly.

[island ridge hounds]

hey brian if you make the cross i may want a pup. its a gamble but i do believe in short inbreeding amplifies traits in the hounds wither good or bad it will increase the traits if you like them or not. culling the bad would just mean you may and i say may have one or possible two hounds that have the good stuff your looking for but it will be really good stuff. so its a gamble which most people wont do because they have alot less hounds worthy of staying alive.

[sanfordssj]

branko's double ann...branko's conman x branko's pretty pebbles...pebbles is a daughter of branko's conman.

branko's double ann was the mother of ifc branko's ali baba. look at how ali baba has reproduced, that was all set up by the tight breeding of his mother in my opinion.

also ifc branko's heli prop x branko's second hand rose... half mate breeding that in my opinion resulted in the best litter off of heli prop which incliuded fc branko's boonecreek trimmer, fc branko's proper tom cat, fc branko's proper lady-slipper.

fc branko's rabble rauser ifc branko's heli prop x branko's conna, another half mate thru jack.

im sure there are many others in different lines but im not that familiar with, this tight breeding can work if done right, but you better love what you have if you are going to breed this tight. its actually the only way that you can keep the blood that you have up close and tight in your kennel for years to come. to make a mother to son or vice versa cross you have to do it for the right reasons, first to get dogs that can reproduce, and you may get good performance dogs to but moe then likely it will be the next cross after such a tight breed. breeding this tight is a huge step to take, but well worth it if done correctly.

Great exmaple from one of the best breeders in beagles...Branko knows what he is doing and has been doing it for years. He also has the ability to raise, start, and cull the entire litter if it didn't work. Again...inbreeding is not for the inexperienced breeder or a guy like me, you and 90% of everyone on here! Line breed all day long and enjoy your dogs.

[Ron Conroe]

no one knows what the hec they are doing when they inbreed, they are just taking a chance that something well turn out like the mother or father. they don't care if they are stupid or have a genetic defect, they just flood the market with this crap and not bat a eye.

[Ken Yerian]

Reverand Parks wrote a very intersting book called Breeding Better Beagles back in the 90's that addressed these issues. I belive you can still buy them from him. His telephone # used to be 765-998-1940. He gives the pro's and con's on inbreeding and line breeding. One of the best crosses you can make is to take two tightly bred lines that complement each other and hopefully you come up with a litter that has Hybrid vigor. After you make that cross and get that oustanding litter the hard part is keeping it going. An example would be to take a line bred Northway female and cross it to a line bred Jack of all Trades male. Witch way would you breed the offspring if they make the grade.? Do you go back to the Nothway Line or do you stay with Branko? Or do you go another route and try rangerDan or Striker?
A friend of mine has raised Walker CoonHound for years. Back in the 90's he decided he was going to improve his line so he set out to breed to the World Champion every year. He did this faithfully for several years, spent a lot of money on stud fees and gas and never produced the dog s he was looking for. He has changed direction and is now just buying started dogs so he can see what he is getting and hasn't raised a litter in the last couple of years.
having said all of that Breeding is still a gamble even when you do your Homework to put the odds in your favor. It's just a roll of the Dice and when you double up you increase your odds od winning. if you can get ahold of a copy of Breeding Better Beagles read it even if you're not going to raise a litter. It will help you make a decision on buying a pup also.

Ken Yerian

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

no one knows what the hec they are doing when they inbreed, they are just taking a chance that something well turn out like the mother or father. they don't care if they are stupid or have a genetic defect, they just flood the market with this crap and not bat a eye.

Ok Conroe thats a time out for ya.

[Dunbar Family Kennel]

Thanks guys for all your input on this topic. I have made the cross tonight

[back40]

Inbreeding does not CAUSE anything, it only exposes and magnifies what's already there. All dogs and all lines have faults so it's really a matter of what faults the owner/breeder can live with. Many will not inbreed because they do not want to see those faults (or faults they didn't know about) magnified. Others will inbreed for exactly that reason - to see if any intolerable faults will show up - then they cull those individuals ruthlessly. If you want to see all your hounds' traits (good and bad) magnified the most then just breed a full brother to a full sister........more than once.

[Tim H]

Well, sometimes you don't need to magnify something to be sure you don't want it locked in. If you need it magnified to see it, you may just continue to overlook it as you have all along.