A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
swampman i agree 100% this bite is indeed deep and wide This will affect more than just a few beaglers it will hurt the south east and most folks that have the patch line in this neck of the woods One more thing randy while he may be a good guy the facts are the facts and a lie is a lie and this one was compounded generation after generation are you or him going to give people thier hard earned money back or do you want all these grade dogs piled on your front steps kinda hard to swallow huh thanks cojax
My ph has been on charge,noticed there was a message , I cannot give Swampman`s ph no out if any one should want to contact Swampman you may click on Swampman and send a pm.
DavidC,
The only pedigree I see has plowboy Polka Dot patch as a daughter to Frosty, and plowboy Rhonda patch as a grandaughter. I haven't been sent any others.
S.R.
The pedigree I have for Briary Creek Pache O'Hammer has just what you said- O'Hammer's dam is Plowboy's Polka Dot Patch and his grandmother is Plowboy's Frosty Patch.
I have always said that nobody is who they think they are. Just think about it. If a person's last name is Doe as in John Doe. Can that person really say that for generation upon generation that somebody of there kinfolks didn't jump the fence and have a baby by another man yet gave that baby the husbands last name. Also when peope came to America with last names a lot of these people changed their own names because there name was a dead give away to there nationality and they didn't want the stigma.. Example: Smith was once Smitt's a German name. Several years ago you could read any book on the Tennessee Walking horse and there color was descibed as a solid color. All of a sudden in the early eighties spotted Reg. TN Walking horses started appearing on the scene. All these reg. Tennessee spotted walking horses were small to start with, why ? because pony blood had made its way into the Walking Horse breed. This all happened before blood typing began. The market for these Spotted Walking horses sky rocketed. I personaly don't believe any bloodline of beagles can honestly say that somewhere back there sometime before dna a dishonest breeder didn't breed his reg. female to a grade dog that had bogus papers. So if it were possible for everyone to check there own pedigree they might be surprised.
Salzer mtn wrote:I have always said that nobody is who they think they are. Just think about it. If a person's last name is Doe as in John Doe. Can that person really say that for generation upon generation that somebody of there kinfolks didn't jump the fence and have a baby by another man yet gave that baby the husbands last name. Also when peope came to America with last names a lot of these people changed their own names because there name was a dead give away to there nationality and they didn't want the stigma.. Example: Smith was once Smitt's a German name. Several years ago you could read any book on the Tennessee Walking horse and there color was descibed as a solid color. All of a sudden in the early eighties spotted Reg. TN Walking horses started appearing on the scene. All these reg. Tennessee spotted walking horses were small to start with, why ? because pony blood had made its way into the Walking Horse breed. This all happened before blood typing began. The market for these Spotted Walking horses sky rocketed. I personaly don't believe any bloodline of beagles can honestly say that somewhere back there sometime before dna a dishonest breeder didn't breed his reg. female to a grade dog that had bogus papers. So if it were possible for everyone to check there own pedigree they might be surprised.
When you get upon the podium and preach "pure patch" you should at least believe to the soles of your feet what your saying is true. If you know there's a flaw, you should not continue to perpetuate it.
There are people who know the truth, were not saying the hounds are any better or worse than their cousin's, only that the integrity of the pedigree be kept intact.
Regardless of how this turns out, the tried and true pracitice comes to mind. You only deal dogs with those you trust. Any qustion of my dogs lineage would be a shot to my heart. I do not have many dogs but I will only deal with those that I know to have the blood line at the best of their interest.
There were beagles even in the U.S. before there was an AKC or any other registering agency. All foundation stock was grandfathered in by inspection. These foundation beagles were "grade" and I suspect they were of mixed breeds to start with. Specific breeds were not created by God. I have known for years that even in a closed breed registry that people knowingly and unknowingly have registered animals that was of fake parentage so they could "show" or conpete in field events. If an animal looks and performs as it should what is the big deal. Registeration papers are worth no more than the paper they are written on. It seems as if someone has a burr in their hind end and are pretending to take the high road to prove their intergity as a breeder. I want the lineage of a hound and be able to take the word of a breeder based on their reputation and their experience and knowledge not whose signature is on the breeder's certificate. Intention to commit a crime for money by an intentional or unintentional wrong signature would be hard to get into a court of law after 13 yrs. AKC could possiblly levy a fine and/or disbar someone. That will not change all the hounds whose parentage is affected by this breeding, they will be just as good or just as sorry if they are declared grade dogs. It seems to me that the high road would be to accept the fact that after this many generations, the hounds in question would be genetically "pure" bred. Why don't those involved go ahead and open themselves to a slander case and name a name as the naming of certain hounds lets everyone know who they are accusing.
Lineage as defined in webster`s (an ancestral line of descent,as he has an aristocratic lineage.) As I have stated, a pedigree does not run a rabbit,it only show`s the lineage,or ancesters of he dog or dog`s mentioned which are supposed to be true and accurate.
I could take a Bull Mastiff and put the prefix of Plowboy`s Bull Mastiff,that would not be pointing a finger at any one. as for a thorn or what ever terminology you wish to use, Yep I got it.
It would appear that you could care less about haveing true blood lines,and if they are correct or not, you know of people who have falisified documentation and have kept it to yourself, what does that say about your character?
As far as what would happen in a court of law ( let it happen) I was a PI for lawyers a few years ago, It`s really astonishing what can happen in court. Good and bad.
Low road no, high road yes, I would rather have my head above as in my behind as you put it and seems to be where your`s might be.
In the beginning, there was "only" AKC. Then in the 80's, there was ARHA, an open registry for registered, grade or any of questionable linage. Now we have AKC, ARHA/NKC aaaannnnd UKC.
I know alot of hounds are registered with ARHA and UKC an their competition and titles won't be affected from what ever AKC does. There is no reason to "fudge", with other avenues of registry available other than profit or to degrade the AKC's registry integrity.
The other problem is, the Patch hounds mean an awful alot to some folks around, there the oldest line of hounds still kept as a family that I know of. I am not saying that a outcross is not beneficial, but the problem of what the outcross was too?
There are more problems coming to surface as this cookie crumbles, once was not enough there is more.
tsa la gi writes "As far as what would happen in a court of law ( let it happen) I was a PI for lawyers a few years ago, It`s really astonishing what can happen in court. Good and bad"
You are absolutely right about that. To my understanding, filing a false registration by US Mail or computer for financial gain is a Federal Violation of the RICO law. There may be no statue of limitations in this matter, Federal or Civil. I would not want to be the perpetrator and try to beat the allegation.
Whatever the outcome, AKC is sure to deny any blame. Yet, as stated by Swampman, "Again, I called the "breeder" over two weeks ago. He told me that the frosty dog was old and possibly dead in the late 90's, when in fact the litter registration from the AKC states in was born in 12-97". This being the case, I think that AKC was remiss in their responsibility to determine the capability of Frosty to sire a litter of pups. I am sure that AKC would not know if Frosty was dead or alive but a red flag should have goneup if Frosty was 10 or 11 years of age and produced a 6 or 7 pup litter.
While this kind of thing is not new in breeding animals, it is not morally or legally right and is not to be condoned. (Except by others of like thinking).
Sir, I think I posted a civil post and I believe I declared I am very interested in lineage but not very high on some registry that pretends that every thing they register is royalty. Once again you took a round about way of naming someone without giving a real name. I think that you have little right to say that I have my head in my rectum as you don't know me, never saw me and never communicated with me in any way. You have no idea about my character but you seem willing to belittle someone's character at the drop of a hat. You can kiss what I sit on. Don't bother to reply, this is my last post on this topic as I much prefer to read about positive things.
bill huttozac wrote: as stated by Swampman, "Again, I called the "breeder" over two weeks ago. He told me that the frosty dog was old and possibly dead in the late 90's, when in fact the litter registration from the AKC states in was born in 12-97". This being the case, I think that AKC was remiss in their responsibility to determine the capability of Frosty to sire a litter of pups. I am sure that AKC would not know if Frosty was dead or alive but a red flag should have goneup if Frosty was 10 or 11 years of age and produced a 6 or 7 pup litter.
While this kind of thing is not new in breeding animals, it is not morally or legally right and is not to be condoned. (Except by others of like thinking).
Bill,
The pedigree I have shows Frosty as a bitch and being bred to Elmo's Diamond Rio Patch.
This will affect more than just a few beaglers it will hurt the south east and most folks that have the patch line in this neck of the woods 
One more thing randy while he may be a good guy the facts are the facts and a lie is a lie and this one was compounded generation after generation 
are you or him going to give people thier hard earned money back or do you want all these grade dogs piled on your front steps 
kinda hard to swallow huh 
thanks cojax