Beagle takes 3rd in Hound Div at Westminster

[S.R.Patch]

I rest my case. Nowhere in all this hair trimming was heart, desire or stamina required or tested for. There are so many more things required in a hunting hound that are not tested or required in the show dog to be successful.

The resistance from the show people is just, for they want and judge for, as the name implies, a "show dog".

The simple example of coat colour is enough to show that much good stock is over looked to get the classic tir-colour dog that succeeds to the winners ring. A good conformed blue-tic that would run the hair off a rabbit, wouldn't have a chance to get there, would you agree?

I do agree, the hunter is always looking for better conformation in his hounds but as another pointed out, "pretty is, as pretty does"

I am in favour with you, for the hunts to also have the bench shows, anything to promote the total hound. The only way we differ is, what's the best road to get there. I feel the "gap" between the two is too great and more, is at risk of being lost than gained, to warrant the move. If I felt as Mr. Dornin, at the time, there was none available, I would do the same but, as little Jimmy says, "It just ain't so" ...Patch

[DDWBeagles]

Gus, good comments......(darn you gave Patch some more ammo...lol). As far as endurance, the theory has already been stated. If the dog is built correctly, isn't it logical to assume that it would expend much less energy and move with a harmonious balance that "should" enable it to stay in the game. Based upon personal experience, I can't comment either way, but give the above theory strong consideration due to it's simple logic. However, when I run my two on cottontails, it's typically for a half day and they are not running the entire time. Under those conditions, they are actually more "hyped" coming out of the field than when the box opened.
Ya know what would be the true test? I'd like to see someone who runs hare or participates in hare trails, try out a some solid show stock. That would be the true test. In my humble experience, show stock never suffers from lack of foot, so speed is on their side. Anyone out there have any experience or opinions on this?
Now with all that being said, I am open minded and consider all sides. So, even as a promoter of strong conformation, I often consider the build of some common predators. Take the fox for example. Here you have a short legged, long torso animal that certainly has great amounts of speed and endurance. Kinda throws a monkey wrench in my above statements. Whose right? My guess is all of us. The main reason I looked for show stock, which was no easy feat by the way. Was because when I got into this sport and attended my first few trials, I was VERY disappointed at conformation. To be blunt, most could run the pants off a rabbit, but were actually UGLY and I would go so far to say, had questionable lineage.
Now, let's talk division. TC...I agree with your comments about the show side. I got into conformation beagles long before it was a "fad thing." There were always a few pioneers (Tim Hackwork, Mandi Bobbit, Hal Davis, etc...), but it wasn't the popular topic that it is today. Your comment about show breeders not trying to incorporate more hunt into their programs rang so true. It took me over six months to get my first one and was like offering up my first born child. It had got so bad, that I resorted to looking overseas for an import. It was through a connection there I ended up with a referral and recommendation to a breeder here in the US. Looking back, I felt like I was up for a supreme court nomination, rather than potential pet ownership . To go a step further, the divide isn't just between show verses field, what about the huge gap between field versus gun dog? An outside observer would think we are talking about three different breeds (darn, that brings up the next crazy point. Why in the hell do we seperate 13 from 15" beagles. Is there that much of a difference? No, in most other breeds, the difference is between regular and minature. Anyway, I'm rambling now and off on a completely different topics. Keep the thread going and Patch, save me a rocking chair on the front porch. If I'm ever out your way, I would love chat.

In an ideal world, the total package would be suitable for all three arenas (show ring, field trials and pleasure hunter). I'm not so optimistic to think we'll ever get that close. This has been a good thread and very interesting reading.

[gus]

It seems that man would rather try to put a square peg in a round hole than do the obvious. He seems to have come up with a standard with the idea of lets make it beautiful therefore it should be more efficient. However, it seems more logical to me to see what is efficient in the field and make that the standard.
I went to a hare trial a few years back. They turned loose more than seventy thirteen inch bitches and let them run for three hours. This was constant running. Then they caught the entire pack and cut the field to thirty hounds. I was surprised that after three hours of running some of those little bitches were jumping up and playing with their owners like they had just been released from their dog box. They then released the thirty hounds and began judging again.
Now wouldn't it make more sense to study the conformation of those hounds that could run and hunt all day and make that the standard. I see a lot of hare bred hounds that are beautiful and still are functional. Cowboy Striker and Chase's Crockett are two that look great in the magazines. Why not base the standard on hounds of this type. We know they are functional. Interesting the champion show beagle of the thirties and forties were closer in appearance to Striker and Crockett than the show champions of today. Maybe it was the show beaglers that lost their way?

[Alabama John]

Great discussion folks!

DOW, thanks for mentioning my 'Ol Fox.

With all the differences of opinion on what is pretty and what is ugly, I just want to comment like this:
It has been my one and first opinion upon looking at someone's dogs in their pen as who is ugliest and which one is prettiest, and judging them accordingly. Oddly though, upon turning them loose and hunting with them, the one that keeps "doing it", always becomes the prettiest to me.

The standard needs to be revised in my humble opinion so the dogs that can and do "do it" and excell in the field will be judged as having the correct confirmation to win at the shows.

One problem as pointed out, it will be hard to have 'ol Blue rather than a dog with at least four names just walk in and win if the handlers are making $175,000.00 a year off the system as it is. Not only would it be hard to get the standard changed, but to have those involved turn loose of their cash money!

Having "present rules" show dog winners start competing in the field is backward to me, it should be have field dogs winning the shows.

[Alabama John]

Sorry Gus, I was typing when you posted. You know what they say about great minds. Maybe we have ESP? I agree with you!

[TC]

Be proud of your breed and the abilities your dog has! Get those field dogs out there and Make those judges look at those field dogs. I have seen a lot of field dogs that are just as nice if not nicer than some of the show dogs currently representing the Breed. One of the main things a field dog has going for him is his muscle tone. If you look on sites that are just show dogs this is one thing I notice that the dogs don't have like the field dogs.

I do agree that the Beagle breed should have all the qualities they were bred for, the hunt. For a dog to hunt and have the stamina they do need to have appropriate body structure to maintaine the stamina it takes to bring home the bacon. This is why they have the conformation in the breed, it was not to separate the lap dog type to the working dog type. Conformation was designed to make a standard that all beaglers should strive to obtain when breeding their dogs to give them the body structure to do the job the beagle was bred for, hunting.

In essence this is what I was trying to say all along, if you dont get them out there then how are the judges going to see them to be able to judge them? If we let the show judges dictate what they see in the ring then the standard changes they can only judge what they see in the ring that day!

TC
Thornridge Beagles
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/

[Alabama John]

TC, I'm just curious, have you ever seen a trial dog enter the shows that did not have the standard conformation, but was a winner at "doing it" or was handled by a regular old beagle person rather than a paid professional handler?

How do you enter a big show? Explain the procedure and bottom line costs and we just might have some good 'ol boy that only hunts that would give it a try.

Talk about an underdog, but with a huge following and cheerleaders!

[TC]

TC, I'm just curious, have you ever seen a trial dog enter the shows that did not have the standard conformation, but was a winner at "doing it" or was handled by a regular old beagle person rather than a paid professional handler?

How do you enter a big show? Explain the procedure and bottom line costs and we just might have some good 'ol boy that only hunts that would give it a try.

Talk about an underdog, but with a huge following and cheerleaders!

Yes sir I have His name is Simonsons TJ Tracker a HBCH in UKC field and one hell of a hound runs to catch and has!! Many times! Shown by his owner Jon Simonson From Corvallis Oregon And Took the Hunting beagle Class at the NBC nationals held in Portland Oregon this past year and His first show buy the way He also has multiple placements in UKC/AKC shows and has earned points in both and Jon had never stepped into a ring until last year!!

Then There is Missy Fix and her dog Laddy who placed in the 15" class at the Nationals also I will post pictures when I can find them I have them just need to find them

Then there is my wife and I None of us professional handlers!! We take flack all the time from the big time show handlers and breeders along with the Field only folks BUT we are starting to get them to look!!!

As far as the procedures on how to enter a show this info is available on the AKC or UKC sites all the forms are there just fill em out and show up
Maybe find someone that has done it before to take you through the steps as we did. As to cost it varies but usually $20 to $25 per dog
A very good starting place would be your local beagle club or one of the numerous all breed clubs in your area most offer classes for beginners You may just find that many of these folks would be glad to help you out.
And yes you will probably be snubbed or talked about you have to just let it roll off and keep on plugging away we have met some very nice people at these shows And I feel as long as they are talking about me they are leaving someone else alone!!
My personal recommendation would be to start in The UKC they are more down to earth and very family oriented with their juniors classes they talk to you about your dogs not down to you and most of the judges have at one point done bench themselves AND NO PROFFESIONAL HANDLERS ALLOWED!!! Just a few areas to give ya something to think about and not trying to cause any hard feelings or anything here just having fun with my hounds!!! And trying to better understand why there are two different types of Beagles and Beagle Owners


Oh and John, I will be One of those there Cheering you on!!!!!
Here is the picture of TJ TRACKER
http://clubs.akc.org/NBC/Photos/13/Best13HuntingDog.jpg
Missy Fix and Laddy
http://www.missy.beagles.com/photogalle ... allery.htm

[Boomer]

I can't remember where I read it, but the black/brown/white tri-colors apparently win a disproportionate share of the beagle breed rings in AKC conformation, but the red-and-whites win the hound group at a disproportionate share to the tris. Go figure!

I know some breeder/handlers who get paid to handle, but they don't make $175k/yr! They are also involved in breeds where you're talking $2k minimum for a show-quality pup. There's a lot less money involved when it comes to beagles.

From what I've heard and seen, most of the beagles in the ring are handled by their owners. That's apparently not true with a lot of breeds. I was at a dog show watching another breed that had like 80 entries one day, and there were about 20 different classes. After every class, the handlers would walk out of the ring with their dogs, and then they'd come right back in with more dogs. It's like the 80 dogs only had 10 separate professional handlers.

As for endurance, we'd need to see a comparison of large numbers of beagles to really get a good idea of whether or not the show-bred lines have less endurance. I've known plenty of "field" beagles that couldn't sustain energy for very long, too.

[Alabama John]

Way to go TC, you're way ahead of me (us) and hope you can get the standard changed!

Keep trying and hope you succeed. Maybe part of that $175,000.00 paid to a professional handler is for their food.

I like a rags to riches story and so does everyone else. Sure would like to see that run to catch dog in the ring. Hope he had a plowline doubled for a leash. Might as well pour it on thick.

The only show dogs I have seen seem to run high in the air and stilted and have a funny gait, not have the ability to run fast at all, irregardless of nose, but I have only personally seen a few and maybe they were not typical.

I would prefer one that had the take off and turn ability of a Border Collie herding sheep. Notice how low they run and every beagle I have seen that could run fast ran low like that.

Go get them TC. you too DOW! I'm cheering you on!

[TC]

Thanks Alabama John
We will keep doing what we can We are not trying to get the standards changed just the judges interpretation of those standards. We have along way to go But we have TIME.

[buckridge]

Everyone of you show try to attend a show sometime soon.
You could see and learn a lot in a short period of time.
Talk to the breeders, for the most part they are friendly and will talk to you.
You will be surprised how they admire field beagles, it is something they do not have and would love to have a dog that could hunt and show.

Let me explain a few thing asked.
Cost: show puppy will avg. $600.00 ( more on the west and east coast )
Cost to show: avg. $22.00 per entry
Cost if you have a Handler: $100.00 each time the dog goes in the ring plus expenses.
Cost if you show: avg. $22.00 per entry, per day, plus expenses, about the same as going to a trial.

I have both and enjoy both.

Hope I have answered some of your questions

Jim

[windy hollow]

how can a dog like this compete with a beagle and win and thats not the worse of it this is even uglier and it won the show.

I think these judges need glasses this should have been the winner. without a doubt.

[Steve C.]

I probably shouldn't post an opinion on a subject of which I'm unqualified such as beagles bred for conformation but it has always seemed to me that those individuals preferred by bench judges fail to meet the standard. The description begins by saying that the beagle should resemble a miniature foxhound; which is not nearly as blocky as most bench beagles. The build on these bench hounds does not lend itself to fluid movement and actually impairs the hound from achieving any speed or stamina. Mind you, I'm not knocking these hounds or the folks who enjoy working with them as much as I do with mine, but the true test for conformation can only come in the field, as a result of generations of breeding for speed and endurance. I doubt that many (if any) of these top conformation hounds have ever spent much time actually running and certainly not for 6, 8, 12, 24 hours at a time. While they are certainly nice to look at, so is the hound in S. R. Patch's avatar, and to my lights, a true example of excellent conformation. As for judges, a friend of mine had an oustanding field male at the Triple Challenge a few years ago. Upon a thorough inspection by the bench judge, his comment was; "Nice bitch"! I guess I'm one of those pragmatists who believe too that beauty is as beauty does, and that one can not breed for traits without testing for them. Someone earlier commented that he witnessed 70 hounds running as a pack for three hours, then 30 of them ran for another three. Those folks who I run with run our dogs day after day from daylight to dark, on snow and bare ground. Those who can't achieve this level of performance are culls as their lack of endurance speaks to their lack of proper conformation. I too have seen hundreds of large packs of 30 to 60 hounds run for 8 to 12 hours and many of those hounds are ready to go the next day. 8 hours of running in deep snow is even tougher. I believe we who breed for performance can learn a thing or two from the bench folks but conformation as it pertains to performance is not one of those things. The build of today's show beagle prevents them from achieving the standard in my opinion, and proven by my experience with running hounds. I acknowledge that many of these bench dogs can and do run rabbits, but they can never compete with most performance hounds. Again, just my opinion.

[WELLS WOODS]

I would never breed to a hound that wasn't proven in the field, just to improve the conformation in my hounds. That would be too much of a gamble. Good looks and conformation are very important to me, but I believe this should and could be achieved by breeding quality field dogs.
A pup must first have straight legs, athletic body, good ears, plenty of space between its eyes,etc. before I'll even take the time to see his field quality. If he suits me in looks , then he must suit me in the field or he will be culled also.