Field Champion Titles watered down abit?

[Buckeye Blues]

Some good posts between my last and this one.

But here's the thing. That $40.00 extra to the club is eventually gonna cost the club how many $20.00 entry fees? When guys with $20.00 entry fees start getting whipped every time out by guys with $2.00 entry fees do you think they are gonna keep returning to that club's trials?

I'm not saying I dont want FC's to compete. I do. But I'm looking at it realistically and financially. People who have dogs they know are gonna get beat by an FC arent gonna continue to pay the big bucks for traveling or hiring a handler. Let alone having to pay 10 times more to enter the trial than the dog that's beating them. Think of what that would do to the handlers. If its known hes going on the circuit with an FC or 2 how many people are gonna pay him his handler money that dont have any FC's to send?

Thats why I still like my idea of an additional "field champion of champion licensed trial" for each club to run every year. Once an FC dog has 3 wins in this format he/ she would be designated FCC.

This would perpetuate the sport. It would still be just as hard to get FC. 3 wins, 120 points, but a guy would still have a chance at it so he would still enter his dog(s).

Lets face it. Like it or not you have to let new dogs FC or the sport is gonna die quick.

Run the FC's against the FC's. Give them the goal to obtain FCC. If an FC cant come up with 3 wins against other FC's then he doesnt deserve the title FCC.

I think its a legit way to let the creme float to the top without sacrificing the loss or further decline of our sport.

[mobeagle]

Again your point is taken but we're splitting hairs a little bit here just because they are kids. Some win, some lose and some never try. Your comment about making them feel good is the exact point...........and the problem. They earned something too just maybe not the same thing as the defense.

I'm hoping next week when I miss work monday for deer hunting my boss will still pay me like the guys that were there so I don't feel bad. Harner for as much as I know about you from reading your posts on here I like ya, I really do but the attitude you've got about things like this in life are why people feel things like FC titles are "watered down". Again, we're talking about kids in a kids game and buying some gatorade but things like that are where it starts. Then the next time it's a little more, and a little more and they just keep on expecting for the rest of their lives...........deserving or not.

I agree. People expect something for nothing anymore. A reward is something you EARN not something you just get. This discussion is a little outside my knowledge because I've never trialed but as a competitor I personally would invite the competition that is the best. Theres no bigger reward than beating the best.

[mybeagles]

It all ends in Socialism. America is headed for it at an alarming rate......

Mybeagles

[big mike 50]

Buckeye brings up a good point that I was thinking about. I do wonder if people would not run their dogs in a trial therefor not pay the entry fee if they had to run against FC knowing their dog would not win. Personally I would enjoy the challenge and the opportunity but that is just me.

[Bunnyblaster]

I would suppose it depends on why you are going to go to the trial in the first place. Do you want to pay the money just to hang with the guys or do you want a chance to win? If I was serious about trialing and getting a dog to the point of being a field champion then why would I pay to put him in if I'm quite sure he's gonna lose? Go out and get a better dog and try again maybe?

Good one fellas...........I don't know if there is a good answer. Of course if we go run at Harner's place then even the worst dog is a winner. JK Harner..........a little razzing here and there never hurts I hope.

[mybeagles]

If their dogs could not compete, and were severely out performed I would hope they would keep those dogs in the woods longer and bring them up to a higher level. In my experience in judging, the problem is not having too much competition. The problem has been having a bunch of derby hounds competing in a licensed trial. I remember one class of 15" males I judged. 24 hounds. after speaking with some of the owners after the trial I come to learn there were only 5 hounds entered over 2 years old. I thought that was pretty extreme.

I think if the bar is raised and the quality improved in the trials it would draw some of the nay sayers back to the sport that have attended a couple trial only to see VERY poor running and go away determined to have nothing to do with the trials. Overcompetative, fast derby hounds thrown into the mix makes for some really bad running where the judge has to pick the "best of the worst".

Bunnyblaster,

Dont think for a minute there are not guys dumping in their dogs just for something to do. I have seen dogs that Im absololutely sure were not even started. Ive seen some that just back tracked ALL DAY till they were removed. Some that never barked during a 30 min drive. Dont assume everyone it there just to win. Some know thay are not going to win, still others just dont have a clue.

Buckeye Blue,

Would you rather have guys paying a handler and the big entry fee's and getting a FC title for their dog when there was poor level of competition? It sounds like your willing to comprimise the quality of entries for the sake of the guy who wants to gain a title for an average dog???


Mybeagles

[Casey Harner]

I personally just would give both the offense and defense something at the end, at that age, playing a contact sport like football, pee wee players deserve it. I wouldn't take a baseball player that went 0-4 at the plate, take him out, make him watch the rest of the team eat pizza. At that pee wee age, the score shouldn't mattter, I'd be more interested in keeping them entertained and wanting to come back and play again. Like I said blaster, your motivation is great, but I would have done it differently. Opinions are like noses, all of them are different. Hope you had a safe and good year. Good luck next year!!

P.S. I think some parents out there are getting weaker and weaker on their kids, they let things slide and most don't get in trouble as much as they did back in the older days. I think thats where sports gets a bad rap. They think everything should be done by the books, even if its not done at home. Keep on coaching, remember, even if your winning and playing every child on the team, the parents will keep on complaining about something.


Back to the beagles.

I would love to see a pack of FC's go as a team, see who runs the rabbit better. Then take a pack of young upcoming prospects and run them together. At the end, take a few that did well in their individual pack and mix them together. See which ones dominate the young one or the FC's

I'd call it, the maybes vs the pros

Lol @ Blaster. Nope I would guess the 2nd worst dog would be the winner, mine would be the worst... lol

[rock pushin rabbit hunter]

I have been feild trialing now for 5 years and have been fortunate enough to make 4 dogs LPRCH.Recently I have decided to broaden my horizons and start running a line control midwest style dog.Before I didn'nt care how a dog scored as long as won.Now that I've been running a more line control dog I've really started picking my dogs apart and paying close attention to the way they run a rabbit.Man is there little room for error in the AKC mid-west format.You 'r dog must have speed,line control,work a check correctly,no running off the end,clean mouth (especially in the check),and no cutting and these are just the few things I know of that a judge looks for.My point is,It is hard enough to finish a dog in NKC,I can only imagine how tough it must be in AKC with their scoring system and requirments to make FC.Like I said,I'm new to the Mid-West trialing but I look forward running under a different format and meeting a whole new group of beaglers.I'm learning the more I get into it the more respect I have for FC dogs and the beaglers who run these dogs to get them where they are.I don't know if my hounds will have what it takes to compete in the mid-west ,but here I go head first.

[Casey Harner]

I might be sounding like a hypocrite here, but oh well. I am no way back tracking on what I said about FC dogs. I think trial like this is a good thing. Love to see an older hound whoop on some younger hounds, or even vi-versa. But I do see a few reasons why they wouldn't want to bring their champions in.

Two big reasons why I can understand why some wouldn't bring their champion to a trial like this.

1. Being injuried. Throwing out their backs....
2. Say in one trial, the FC takes 5th out of 7 hounds. Does this ruin a dogs reputation? Will everyone stop breeding to this stud dog cause of it?? Does every one think that he didn't rightfully champion out?? Will people go to the winner of that cast and start breeding to a hound that might have got lucky?? Then when they are bred, they didn't produce good quality pups. I've been to four trials, two I've been in, two I've watched. You can have a dominate dog, but that don't mean it won't win. Even though I'm new to trials, I can honestly say that judges don't get everything right. Even a really good judge might miss a few things, maybe costing a dog the win. Say you got a bad judge that day, he doesn't score the champion at all. Does this mean that the champion hound is horrible??? These are things to consider before jumping into this. I think a trial like this would be awesome, but hate to see one just being held to rip into a champions reputation.... Make this trial for the right reasons. To see how young hounds fair against champions.

[Ridge View]

Fuzz,

You're right! May The Best Dog Win Everytime! Let the watered down titles rain! Guilty as charged! Lighten up my friend dont take me too seriously.

We all know that there are some hounds out there with titles which are questionable. With that being said, I agree 100% with the statement the title doesn't make the hound the hound makes the title. I believe, there are very few judges who are actually clueless as far as understanding what they are supposed to be looking for in a hound while judging. Do I believe (for whatever name you want to apply to it) that for some reason dogs deserving to be eleminated for severe faults are not being eleminated "Yes." Oh yeah, 100+ yard swing is a long darn way are you sure? The result for me judging "the hook" Backtracking witnessed "the hook" Skirting consistently "the hook" Babbling in check, better stop quick or "the hook" cold trailing, very little tolerance "the hook" running deer, "no doubt hook'em up"

C-ya around take care til next time

[mybeagles]

So to this point the reasons we have for not running FC's is:

1. Might get injured
2. To busy breeding
3. Might loose a reputation if the dog does poorly.

These all coming from guys who claim not to own a FC.

Lets here from some of the owners of some of the FC's........Is it backlash from others, money, time to keep them conditioned, fear of loosing face????

I know of a couple guys that run their Field Champions.....Steve Ammon and Joe K. (greenbay kennels). Guess these guys are proud of their FC's. Nothing to hide. To me these guys are gaining a reputation for having the real thing??? Thats where Ill be going for my next breeding "FC Greenbay Butkus". Shows me he is no fluke because he just keeps on winning!

Mybeagles

[Casey Harner]

So to this point the reasons we have for not running FC's is:

1. Might get injured
2. To busy breeding
3. Might loose a reputation if the dog does poorly.

These all coming from guys who claim not to own a FC.

Lets here from some of the owners of some of the FC's........Is it backlash from others, money, time to keep them conditioned, fear of loosing face????

I know of a couple guys that run their Field Champions.....Steve Ammon and Joe K. (greenbay kennels). Guess these guys are proud of their FC's. Nothing to hide. To me these guys are gaining a reputation for having the real thing??? Thats where Ill be going for my next breeding "FC Greenbay Butkus". Shows me he is no fluke because he just keeps on winning!

Mybeagles

I'd go to Butkus's father Shooter.

[DIXIEDOG]

Lets here from some of the owners of some of the FC's........Is it backlash from others, money, time to keep them conditioned, fear of loosing face????

Ok so let's say I've got 2 FC studs and I've got a couple of 2 yr old prospects that can run pretty decent but will get whipped by my FC dogs, do you really think I'm going to bring the heavy hitters and not stand a chance of finishing a couple more money making stud dogs?

I would personally like to see a little more gunning dog trials, when you have 20 dogs down and they can't keep a hare going for more than 10 minutes with out breaking down there is something wrong. Another thing I would like to see is a starter pistol fired at every field trial, what good is a gun shy dog for hunting? Let's remember that beagles are a hunting breed and let's test them under conditions they would encounter in the field.

One more point to make is when you get the same handful of judges that judge the trials in an area every week they start to get to know the hounds, there are a few that I would wager a guess that they know which hound is placing before the hare has jumped because they've seen "Wonder Dog of the year" run the last 10 weeks

[mybeagles]

Dixiedog,

In my mind the idea of a Field Trial is to showcase the BEST hounds. If everyone leaves the FC's at home the bar is lowered. It appears to me that more average dogs become FC's because they are competing against average rather than the best. I guess it boils down to, do we want to see the best, or do we want more dogs with titles.

You mentioned stud fee's and money.....wouldnt 1 superstar bring you far more $$$$ than a couple average FC that no one is really excited about. IFC Ranger Dan is a nice example. He had a fist full of wins and made Tom more money in one year than the average 10 FC bring their owners in a life time. Money is not my motivator, but if it were, I would aim to get a stud with 15 wins that everyone would want to breed to

Did it occur to anyone that the reason 20 dogs cant keep a hare going for 10 minutes is the lack of quality dogs. The FC's sit at home while a bunch of derby dogs compete for a title. I argue that if there were 8 or 10 FC's in the pack you would have some knock down drag out races. If not, folks we have a problem.

Mybeagles

[jdmart]

I find this post as most on this board truly amusing. Of course we all have our own ideas of how the world should operate. I see so many opinions about posts, trials, dogs when the poster doesn't have a clue what it takes to condition a dog for AKC trials or actually the quality of a dog it takes to finish a dog. To compete in AKC SPO trials it takes running hounds 4-6 days a week. I run 7 days a week. As for hounds being placed that are faulty, backtracking is the worst fault I know of and I see judges that can't recognize or just don't want to. They place dogs that do it reguarly. Are there dogs that finish that shouldn't? Yes, there are but the world isn't perfect. To me it is usually easy to spot. A dog that is run at 2 or 3 clubs that is the only place it ever runs and it finishes. Either it is dam good or something is not right! If you finish a hound in AKC and it wins under 8-10 different judges I would pretty much say it is a good hound. At the speed MidWest dogs have now reached yes they are going to make some mistakes. But that is the overall consensus of the style the majority likes, most like it, some don't. If you really don't like it is probably not your style. Rabbit season is her In KY and good luck to all! Hope to see you soon!