do all dogs have a hard time adjusting from hair to cottonta

[LaMarr Rhoades]

neibor guy that runs him for me in the mornings says he is doing alot better job i dont think he knew what he was doin period

[Duke]

Northwester as easy as I know a my hounds can smell a deer and a fox better than a cottontail. I know you have to be kidding.

[NorWester]

No I'm not kidding at all, serious as a heart attack. I know you have deer and fox down in Ohio to be able to make such a comparison where you are but you dont have snowshoe hare, I'm pretty sure of that. So you travel north once or twice a year, no doubt when the running will be at it's best........and then come on here and announce that hare have more scent, run straight lines for miles, implying it's as easy as running a deer. So I've got to ask you if you are kidding?? Let me ask you something else....how often do you have cottontail hunts/runs where the dogs can't move the rabbit 5 barks? Now I'm gonna be upfront and say I can't make a comparison between cottontail and hare, simply because my experience with cottontails is very limited, we don't have them here where I am, so I'm not gonna state one way or the other which has more scent. However I will say that I've noticed that I never hear much of the cottontail guys telling of hard times when hunting or running, where the dogs just can't move the rabbit at all, sometimes for weeks on end. That kind of scenario is all too common place running hare in my neck of the woods, and in RiverBottom's too for that matter. Again......maybe, just maybe, it has less to do with what you're running than it does where you're running

[Jay Schrader]

From my experience running hare and cottontail on the same morning in the same area, the hare are easier for the dogs to run than the cottontails. You can usually tell the difference between a hare run and a ct run before you even see the game. I do agree that conditions can be extremely tough when the temperatures drop below zero in the north woods. I personally have gone out on cold mornings in areas that hold both hare and cottontails and have the dogs run a hare ok and not be able to keep a cottontail going long enough for a full circle.

By your own word NorWester you have little experience with cottontails. I don't think Duke is trying to belittle hare dogs or hare hunters.

A good hare hound has to push the hare fairly fast in tough conditions or it will just plain run out of scent. Likewise a twisty turning cottontail that doesn't leave a lot of scent in the first place is a challenge too. Don't think that you have a corner on the market of tough conditions. Go down to south in September when it's 90 degrees and it hasn't rained in a month and the ground is cracked and see how tough the running is. No doubt it can also be tough in the winter in hare country.

I don't have cottontails runs in southern Michigan that the pack goes out of hearing for 5 minutes at a time circle after circle after circle. If I could run hare all the time I doubt that I would even mess with rabbits. It's that much fun. That's why I go north. You guys that live where the hare are, count your blessings. The rest of us are just jealous. LOL.

[NorWester]

I never implied that Duke was belittling hare hunting or hare hunters, I merely question the basis for his claim that hare's give off more scent than cottontails. By saying how little experience I have on cottontail I'm showing how silly it would be for me to say that cottontails have more scent or are easier to run than a hare, or any other comparison......that just wouldn't make much sense would it? Likewise it doesnt make much sense for a guy who travels north once a year to run hare to say the running is like a deer race with straight lines that go for miles. I've never experienced anything like that. If they are running a straight line for miles and it sounds like a deer race........chances are thats exactly what it is!

A good hare hound has to push the hare fairly fast in tough conditions or it will just plain run out of scent.

That's all fine, and the ability to stay up close to the hare is a valuable trait when it's possible, however that all goes out the window when being fast and speedy is removed from the equation. Nothing is happening very fast when the hounds are up to their necks in snow and it's -20 with little humidity If the guys down south are always having that much trouble running we sure don't hear about it much, however, I'm sure the conditions you describe would be very tough.......and that illustrates my point perfectly, that it's not necessarily what you're running but where (environment/climate) you're running it, that matters.

I don't have cottontails runs in southern Michigan that the pack goes out of hearing for 5 minutes at a time circle after circle after circle. If I could run hare all the time I doubt that I would even mess with rabbits. It's that much fun. That's why I go north. You guys that live where the hare are, count your blessings. The rest of us are just jealous. LOL.Jay Schrader

Then I'm sure you can imagine what the frustration would be knowing how much fun it can be but you aren't gettin it because you don't have a dog that can move the hare more than a couple of barks after the jump. If the running where you go is that easy.......I'm envious of YOU, because it never gets that good here, especially once winter sets in. It's funny.....I read all the time about these smelly hares and the long straight lines they run which turn into monstrous loops that go around and around .......and I find myself wishing I had some of those here

[Mike McPherson]

OK I will chime in here. I live where ther are both cottontail and hare and I have for the 45 years of my life 30 to 35 of I have hunted. My experience is that on a tuff winter scenting day the dogs will run a cottontail better then a hare. I mean real tuff days. I am not sure why but a couple of things I think maybe the difference are that a hare will bound 10 yards a cottontail runs leaving many more tracks to hit and a cottontail seems to do just enough to stay ahead of the dogs where as a hare will usually get out and go putting more distance between the dog and the scent. We hunt both with the same dogs I prefer the challenge of the hare the boys like shooting hare but know they will get more shots at a cottontail spot. Just my experience. I also bought a 3.5 year old top notch cottontail dog that had never seen a hare her first part of her first season she couldn't run a hare to save her life. Would not reach far enough in a check to get it. She became a good one.

Hunt-Em-Up

[BradWV]

Please continue. It is very interesting how people from different parts of the world have their own experiences and how they interpret what others try to relay about their experiences! Great reading!

[briarshakersdaddy]

NorWester That is why I like the harehounds on cottontails. Reach out a little more and keep pecking away at the track when the running is tough [ not cold trailing but determined to keep the track going]. If it can run a hare on frozen snow with below zero tempertures should be able to run a cottontail in dry conditions. Only thing a young cotton tail that dont circle but maybe 15 yards or so is rough on them at first. Nose and Brains should be able to get them through. My daughter-in-law is from Michigan. They go up to visit her folks ever December last year not only my southern dogs but the dogs up there had a hard time running hare 2 feet of froze snow. Like I said before some have a rough time be cause of the difference in the cover when you change from one part of the country. Two of the best dogs I have came from hare country [ Vermont and Michigan] The rest have hare blood [ Branko, Sock It to Me, Camp creek, Chippaw, Pacesetter, Northway, Grannpy , Briarpatch, ECT]. Check the Pedigrees of most Midwest SPO hounds a lot of Northern blood. Have a female that never ran a cottontail till 2 months ago has places in large pack. But is at the present time a little slower than my other dogs on a cottontail know she had to have fair speed to win[2 times] in large pack but takes her time on a cottontail to keep the race going. She will inprove on speed as she builds confidence. Bought one a few years back said to be a great snow hound but not fast enough for Large pack in the northeast was as fast on a cottontail as any of the other dog I have ever owned. He could realy put on a show running on the track at all times no swing around cover no matter how thick. Died of liver cancer been trying to get a nother with his blood finely did after 3 years [above female Roy Kennedy's Brairpatch blood]. Dont you just love a dog that does what ever it has to do to get the job done.

[Duke]

Norhtwester,
Where I go to run hare now there is a decent supply of cottontail. We run about 1 cottontail to every 5 hare, and we are well aware that we are on a cottontail well before we put it in the gamebag. It is obvious to us. As I said running a hare is similar to a deer or fox race that circles, never said anything about hare running straight lines.

I dont run deer a whole lot because I wont tolerate it, I dont run fox a lot cause I wont tolerate it. I can tell in few minutes as any good houndsman can when the dogs are on off game like deer and fox or even a coyote. And I dont have to run a deer everyday to know my dogs can smell one better. I can also tell the difference between a hare and a cottontail race. So can the guys I go up north with.

We enjoy running hare they really test a hounds endurance. We really like the all out exciting almost checkfree running. I KNOW my dogs can smell a hare much better than a cottontail. The other 10 or so guys I have gone north with KNOW their dogs can smell a hare better than a cottontail. On the best of days down here we never have anything close to those thrilling runs, if anything I am jealous of you have those big white rabbits. I am certainly not indicating that hare are a lesser quarry. This has nothing to do with your dogs relax, I like the hare bloodlines just as much as the cottontail bloodlines.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

I've never been hare hunting so my knowledge is limited but I always imagined it to be like running a spring buck rabbit here in Ohio. Nothing better IMHO.
Of course, I understand when the conditions up north get frozen over and terrible that it may be difficult to run about anything gracefully.
I think we can all agree that there are some great hare hound style dogs and great CT bred dogs. Personally, I like to cross up the two styles and get the best of both worlds.
I think everyone here is making good points on the subject.
Hey Joe, I have seen Dutch run a few buck rabbits on AEP land that were almost checkfree for about an hour. Sure it wasn't it a hare?

[NorWester]

We enjoy running hare they really test a hounds endurance. We really like the all out exciting almost checkfree running. I KNOW my dogs can smell a hare much better than a cottontail. The other 10 or so guys I have gone north with KNOW their dogs can smell a hare better than a cottontail. On the best of days down here we never have anything close to those thrilling runs, if anything I am jealous of you have those big white rabbits. I am certainly not indicating that hare are a lesser quarry. This has nothing to do with your dogs relax, I like the hare bloodlines just as much as the cottontail bloodlines.

You don't think those thrilling runs have more to do with the running style of the quarry as opposed to how much scent it has?? I never thought you were indicating that hare is a lesser quarry, nor did I think it had anything do to with my dogs and I'm perfectly relaxed To clear the air somewhat, I'm in no way defending your typical large pack on hare type hounds, I find most lacking as far as running up here when it counts. I'd love to see hounds run check free on hare up this way and so would a bunch of guys I know. Next time you are planning a trip north why not head up into northern Minnesota, I'll do my best and plan it out to drive down and meet you, say about the middle of January or so. I'm serious here as I would truely appreciate the kind of running you describe as I only see that kind of excitement about as often as you do.....once or twice a year (spring and fall). Difference is of course that I'm running hare all the time. I'll think you'll find as you head further north it will become a whole different ballgame.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

Problem I have with the type dog you are wanting to run in the conditions you are describing is mouthiness. How do you get an honest mouth when conditions are average to excellent with a dog that can run on no scent when conditions are pizz poor at best? The third worst thing I dislike in a dog is mouthiness, next to no hunt and back tracking. I won't feed any of the three types.
Some guys love a mouthy hound and that is OK by me and to each his own. We all feed and keep what we like. I can put up with a few months of tuff running for the other 10 months to be above avareage with an honest mouth.
Again, this is just my preference and I in no way and saying my way is the only way or the correct way. It is just what I like. btw, we have those sub 0 days here in Ohio too when the ground is a solid sheet of ice. I watched the Grands at Cumberland Oh. run on it last winter and they couldn't run a rabbit to save their azz and they were all three nice hounds normally. They only jumped one rabbit or a goose. Nobody knew for sure and it wasn't pretty.
What bloodline do you run Norwester?

[BriarCreekBeagles]

Daggum, after readin all this I think I'd like to bring my potlickers up north and see what they got on them there hare.
Anybody that could send a feller in the direction to find some would be greatly appreciated. Oh and one more thing I allready know that I have to go north

[NorWester]

Problem I have with the type dog you are wanting to run in the conditions you are describing is mouthiness. How do you get an honest mouth when conditions are average to excellent with a dog that can run on no scent when conditions are pizz poor at best? The third worst thing I dislike in a dog is mouthiness, next to no hunt and back tracking. I won't feed any of the three types.
Some guys love a mouthy hound and that is OK by me and to each his own. We all feed and keep what we like. I can put up with a few months of tuff running for the other 10 months to be above avareage with an honest mouth.
Again, this is just my preference and I in no way and saying my way is the only way or the correct way. It is just what I like. btw, we have those sub 0 days here in Ohio too when the ground is a solid sheet of ice. I watched the Grands at Cumberland Oh. run on it last winter and they couldn't run a rabbit to save their azz and they were all three nice hounds normally. They only jumped one rabbit or a goose. Nobody knew for sure and it wasn't pretty.
What bloodline do you run Norwester?

Pike Ridge, I don't have a preference for any particular blood but I've got a little cottontail bred stuff, some trial bred LPH stuff and some blood from just south of here that you wouldn't recognize from Adam, just bred for running hare in winter. In my opinion you're correct, breeding for dogs that can run in the toughest conditions will tend to get you two of the traits you dislike, at times. Not that I like mouthiness or backtracking or any other considered fault but in my opinion you have two choices, deal with some faults and have a chance at running ANYTIME you want, or keep a flawless perfect hound and wait patiently for perfect conditions. Up here perfect conditions don't come around often As for the sub zero days in Ohio I'll say this, it seems to me everyone gets a few cold, nasty, winter days and chances are our coldest days up here really aren't that much worse than your coldest. The difference is that we get alot more of them. We were still getting snow well into May and it can start again anytime after the middle of Sept. Here's a pic I took up on some cliffs while the hounds were running down below, second weekend in May I believe, this year. I think we got 2 inches of snow that day

[RiverBottom]

I believe how cottontails run depends a lot on the terrain you hunt them in. I'm in central Minnesota. Most of our cottontails live in small (less than 40 acres) covers. They generaly don't run very well. In snow they won't run much at all before going in a hole. I go down to central Iowa from time to time and their cottontails run a whole lot better than ours do. I have seen several cottontails runs that would do a hare proud.

I run hare about 80% of the time. When conditions are just right we get some of those days when the hare run big and fast. We also get lots of days when it is a struggle to keep one going at all. I have run lots of hare (usualy young ones) that just ran small circles and dove into a slash pile. Generaly speaking, hare run straighter and are easier to run than cottontails but there are plenty of exceptions. Also generaly speaking, scenting conditions for hunting (that's HUNTING during season) are much tougher on the average hare hunt than the average cottontail hunt. Again, there are plenty of exceptions.

Pike Ridge, the first thing I breed for is nose. I don't keep any mouthy dogs, I don't see where the two are connected. I also don't have a lot of "hare blood" in my dogs, probably less than many of you.