Dog color....just curious about an observation.

[Alabama John]

You see all mixs of black, white, and tan dogs. Some are almost white, but have some black and some tan, so that is the way they are put on the papers. Some are almost all black, but, have some tan aand have white on their feet, foot, or chest and are registered honestly as black, white, and tan colored. Some are almost all tan, ssorta buckskin, (which some might call red) but have some black over their eyes and a white spot on their chest or one white toe, and are registered as black, white and tan. Of course that way there is bound to be more of them than any other color.

With those kind of stats given above, the conclusion is easy and obvious.

The tri colored are overall just better dogs at trialing!!

[bob huffman]

NC Beagler keeps talking about percentages. What percentages? I could just as easily say that lemon dogs have a higher percentage of HOF dogs. YTou keep saying it SEEMS! The reason tricolors make coon dog HOF is because walkers are tri color and they were bred more for field trials and the other breeds of coonhounds were not as good at field trails and also because there are lots more walkers than other breeds. Color has nothing to do with it. You need to find out how many red dogs are registered and how many made HOF and then you can talk about percentages. Don't know how you can talk about percentages when you don't have any. You also attacked NYHs charactor and called him defensive- quick tempered and warning flags about his insecurity etc. You then made referance to psych 101 and recognizing signs. Psych 101 does not teach about behavior and signs of defensiveness or insecurity. It teaches only about the brain and how it works. To learn about psych diognosis, you have to take ABNORMAL psych. You having a masters should know that. The first thing any scientist should learn is that one event following another does not prove a correlation. You sit in a draft and 2 days later you have acold so therefore the draft caused the cold. You forget that millions of people sit in drafts each day and never catch cold. As for your diagnosis of new york hillbilly, lets say I give you a personality test and after scoring you I tell you you have high self-esteem and low anxiety. I tell you you have exceptional ege strength. Ah you think, I suspected as much but it feels good to know that. Then another psychologists gives you another test and for some reason a lot of the same questions are on the test. Afterward he tells you that you are quite defensive and you scored high in repressiveness. How could this be you think, the other test said such good things about me. It is because these descriptions describe the same set of responses( the tendancy to say nice things about yourself and not dwell on your problems). Shall we call it high self-asteem or defensiveness. The outcome merely reflects the test givers own values about the trait. It is quite natural for the test givers own prior beliefs and judgement to enter into the results and interpretation. What ones might see as defensiveness, another might see a assertiveness. What one might see as repressiveness, another will see as strong self ego. No psychologist or counselor is immune to these value judgements and reseach is overflowing that make this point clear. I can give you page after page of examples of research pointing this out. When 100 deemed mentally healthy men were asked about their chilhoods in a suvey, most said that they had many traumatic experiences when young, tense relations with there parents and less than perfect handling by their parents. These are the same dynamics generally used to explain many psychological problems. As for wondering if red dogs are have less indurance--- As is your sort of mind- So is your sort of search. ROBERT BROWNING

[NC Beagler]

I have a friend in south Lousianna that breeds labs. In talking with him he said stick w/ either black or yellow labs and stay away from chocolate labs. His explaination - and I haven't done the research to verify - was that chocolate is a recessive trait and that other recessive traits can be passed down with the color - effecting their over all performance and health. He was not saying that all chocolate labs are untalented or unhealthy, but that you'd have a better chance of getting a good dog by getting a black or yellow lab.

Does anyone knows which colors in beagles are dominant and recessive? And has anyone else heard this line of thinking (above)?

Bob - so many words, so little said.

[Hunt6]

One should be allowed to ask a ligit question here without others becoming so defensive.Like asking a question about the gene that causes the blue - red merle effect - color pattern in some breeds.And the eye problems that can occur when two merle's are bred.Any merle FC's tied in a backyard anywhere:) If so how many ?

One in 3600 beagles make FC's.What % do reds make up of the total number beagles registered ? Lemons ? versus the majority tri's.

No one was knocking the red dogs. No need to launch into oh it's the judges picking on us etc.
Hunt6 (David)

[KILLNTM2]

I've heard the same about the Labs. True or not, I don't know. I think it all depends on what animals and colors you're comparing. Take a look at albino animals, and you may be able to come up with color being a sign of other weaknesses/recessive traits that may affect the animal in other ways. When just comparing blueticks with reds with tri-colors, I think you'll find color doesn't really affect other aspects. Basically when you have more tri-colors trialed you're pretty much bound to have more tri-colors winning. It's just a matter of statistics. If tri-colors are being trialed more because they win more, then one might conclude tri-colors are better. More than likely it goes like this, more tri-colors being trialed because they're more tri-colors out there (color that is dominant/popular). With more tri-colors in the trials, you have more tri-colors winning. Winners get studded out more than non winners. Which produce more tri-colors being produced, trialed, winning. The cycle continues. I may be out there with that theory, but that's the way I see it. With coondogs, you've got more than colors differentiating the hounds. A Plott and a Redbone are not the same dog with different colors, neither is a Walker or a Black and Tan. They are built somewhat differently, and I'm sure the same cycle works when comparing why more Walkers make the headlines in Full Cry than others.

[bob huffman]

You are answering your own question. It doesn't really matter what anyone else says. I didn't write the reply for your approval as I knew you wouldn't understand it. yes I know what colors are dominant and recessive in dogs as well as many behavior traits. There may, at times, appear to be a correlation between color and ability. An old racehorse saying is " 4 white feet and stripe between the nose, knock em in the head and feed em to the crows". Well known that a white foot is not as dense as a dark foot and therefore won't hold a shoe as well in a lot of cases. The white foot has more chance of being shelly and not as healthy. Albino cats can be deaf and the list goes on and on. At times the result of recessive genes pairing up to express the trait. These things have been proven by research. Sometimes genes can be inherited in chunks that keeps certain genes hooked to one another and thay are inherited together. Where one goes, the other goes. This is why appearance and behavior traits can be synonomous. The problem is that this only happens in certain cases and usually depends on each individual genes pool. What is true in one family will not be true in another. All the buckskin Plotts in my family were generally not as good as dogs as the black blankets and straight brindles. In another family that a man had bred for many years, the black blankets were the lesser hounds in his family as a general rule. Just the opposite from my family of dogs. We both had differant bloodlines so it would be a false correlation to assume that because one family of dogs has a color correlation with ability, that all families have the same mode of inheritance. Labs would be a distinct family and Beagles would be another. Another dynamic might be the fact that in the past, the dogs were bred for that color at the expense of breeding for ability. Years ago it was easy as pie to look at an Irish Setter and tell if they were any good at pointing birds. The reason was because a large group of breeders bred only for looks and few bred for ability.The dogs bred for looks had a distinct look that was unmistakable and you could be 90% sure that they were no good. The same may be true incertain cases regarding color in certain hunting dog families, only on a lesser scale. I have noticed that some people breed for the chocolate color in working labs and it would certainly be at the expense of ability traits no matter how small. Over time, chocolate labs may suffer on the whole from less ability that black or yellow labs. It is hard enough to breed a top line of dogs breeding only for ability, let alone to do it when breeding for color and ability. Not to say it can't be done but is harder to do. Hope this isn't too long for you. If you could tell me the percentages you are working with, I could give you a better answer. I have all Beagle colors in my family of dogs. Greys, reds, lemons, tri color, tri color with blanket and buff, which is a modified lemon. The buffs have a recessive gene that modifies the lemon, which is also recessive, so thay have a lot of recessives for color. I have never seen any differance in endurance in this family. In another family it may be entirely differant.

[bob huffman]

So many words so little said. I will have to remember that one when I get in a situation where I don't understand what was said. Do you have any other lessons for me?

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

Never really gave it much thought myself.

I've had alot of beagles and never noticed one color being better than another.

I'd say most beagles are tri color because thats what alot of people breed for.

My self I could care less what color they are as long as they do there job.

If I had to pick I'd pick a blanket back tri color built like a tank 30+ lbs and 15 inch's.

But my 20 lb 14 1/4 inch blue tick that sounds like he's choking to death ain't going no where

[Rosewood]

This has been interesting reading. I have several red and white and lemon dogs. Some are out of the same bloodlines that some of the others have mentioned. My vet and I have had several discussions about this area. I have had some (not all) of my red and lemon hounds that I have noticed loose endurance and seem to be more succeptable to wear and tear of heavy cover. Now this is not noticiable in one day or one race but if hunted heavilly for 5 or 6 days in a row in heavy cover where the running has been fast and furious I can notice a difference in some(not all) of the red and lemon dogs. I have explored the variables of dog foods, size, age and bloodline and cannot pin down a single cause. Granted hunted a lot all dogs will wear but some of the red and lemon's do wear more. My vet says that the red and lemon genes in beagles are resessive and by breeding 2 resessives you get a resessive animal. Like I stated earlier I have not noticed this in all of my reds and lemons so my immediate plan of action is to eliminate the ones that wear from the gene pool and line breed the tougher ones that have the hunting and conformation traits that I am looking for. Like I also stated the difference only comes after several days of hard hunting so the difference is not that much anyway. While we are on the subject in my beagling experinces the toughtest beagles (stamina and endurance wise) that I have noticed over the years have been blueticks I have hunted with some blueticks that have been hunted hard 5 days a week all season in heavy cover that would have half of their tails wore to the bone and a head full of briars and ears that were nothing but a scab but they would not quit or slow down. The only thing about most of them is the stubbornness carries over into the trash breaking.

[NC Beagler]

Thanks for the input Bob and Rosewood!

Bob, if you re-read my previous statements you will discover that I have never said anything about this being scientific. In regards to using "percentage" I am only referring to that one list of 170 dogs that I used for a sample pool - realizing it may not be completely reflective of all beagles. The topic is "curious about an observation." That observation being from my limited experience in this area:
1. personal observation w/ my dog
2. statements that I have heard from a couple others
3. looking at that list of hall of fame dogs.

That is it - never intended to be a scientific research project....just something for us to discuss. I do appreciate what you said in your second post....that is very helpful.

You asked for another lesson....let's see....Being long winded about dogs is perfectly fine, but taking jabs at some should be kept short and sweet. And I do understand you perfectly!

[YGD(BUNNYBUSTER)]

MY DOGS DON'T QUIT UNTILL I SAY IT'S TIME TO GO.
OF COURSE, I'M IN THE % THAT DON'T HAVE ALL THAT EDUCATION.
SO THE NEXT QUESTION IS:
IF IT TAKES A HEN &1/2 A DAY &1/2 TO LAY AN EGG& 1/2
HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE A GAME LEGGED ROOSTER TO PUT
SHINGLES ON AN OUTHOUSE
I GUESS ASKING THIS MY UPBRINGING IS SHOWING BUT WHO CARES , WHY LET COLOR BOTHER YOU. % WISE IT'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE "TRI COLOR ".

[bob huffman]

fair enough. I was looking at a post on the board about NORTH WAY beagles and a couple people put links on the reply to see some North Way beagles. I clicked on one and sure enough, there was a fellow breeding chocolate Labs. This is an example of what I was talking about in regard to breeding for color and how the ability could be affected over time. When you breed for color, you lower your oppurtunities to breed to the best in the gene pool and your family may not keep up in the search for the best ability traits in that breed.

[Guest]

boy i just read this whole thread.....is it possible to argue without it being a fight... ??/ i think the worse thing you could do when breeding dogs is worry about color....i have a red dog right now.. seems to tire easy... a few years ago i had a black and white dog same thing. i say dont worry what color dogs are. breed the best you can and then see what color they turn out. where i hunt if you can see the dogs you probably arent going to see the hare.. the hare is the white one... hes not barking.. pete bob huffman said " When you breed for color, you lower your oppurtunities to breed to the best in the gene pool and your family may not keep up in the search for the best ability traits in that breed. "

i think that statement is 100% correct..

[NC Beagler]

Guest - I fully agree w/ Bob's statement in regards to breeding the best to the best and not focusing on color. I've heard it said in regards to breeding animals, "Form must follow function." Thanks for underscoring that for us.

Hunt6 - where in Middle TN are you located? I have in-laws in Murfreesboro and am there quite often.

[snowshoehareguide]

i was guest above.. somehow im logged out of everything. anyways i dont believe in writing anything under guest .. how can everybody know who to get mad at... ?? pete