Gentics-Gun Dog Beagle

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:39 pm

Wingpatch--It is not over your head and is simple once you think about it. It just takes some thought and little getting used to. Yes Beagleman, environment is important also. I have a little pack ch that was raised where rabbits were scarce and he will go 1/4 mile to find a track if he has to. Never make it too easy for them but use some judgement in this regard. Don't hunt pups where rabbits are too thick because it is too easy ans some will not work as hard or stay on the same track if they know they can slip off and find another.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:43 pm

Joe your line control and check work is a little sloppy. Don't blow up because of a little pressure. I never expected a reaction like that from a man that collects human trash. I will give you some examples of field abilities that have a predictable inheritance as soon as you answer the questions I asked you and you conveniantly ignore.

kjohns · Post by **kjohns** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:45 pm

Excellent explanation of recessive and dominant Genes. The question now is where is a list of which genes are recessive and which are dominant. At least the known ones. ie is eye color recessive or dominant?

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:26 pm

Joe I was a little hard on you. Sorry. I have to tell you though that a shock collar in the right hands is a great tool to train with. It must be used correctly. They are good because you can interact with the dog at the precise right moment which helps avoid any confusion on his part as to which behavior is being conditioned. If I used one though it would only be positive or what is known as avoidance training in which the dog is hardly ever shocked and hears the warning sound more than anything. He then does the correct behavior and rewards himself. Another interesting thing is that in research trials, it was found that a very low level os electric stimulation actually makes the dog perform better. It is a very slight tickle that is in no way painful and emits a pleasure response from the dog. It can be used as a reward. Collars are not set up to administor this type of electric current but a person could make his own.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:15 pm

The inheritance of certain field abilities are, in part, predictable to a degree that can help in the breeding program. I have a male with 3 shots of Lineboss up close and he has the best nose on any Beagle I ever saw except one of his pups. Since most of the genes responsible for this are recessive, I know that when he transmits these genes to offspring, he will transmit the genes for cold nose. How do I know this? As I have said, for a recessive trait ( cold nose ) to express itself, it must be present on BOTH chromosomes. It must be in the purebred state having identical recessive genes at that LOCUS. When I observe the cold nose in the field, I already know that recessive genes are responsible because the research of 10,000 matings shows the inheritance MODE of cold nose to be inherited in a recessive fashion, proving the trait is caused by recessive genes. When a dog id bred, his sperm only contain one of the genes from that LOCUS. The bitches egg contains the other gene for that LOCUS. Each contribute half of the neccesary pair needed, or one apiece. Both parents have a pair of genes at that locus, but can only transmit one each to an offspring and it matters not which one they transmit. It will on average be one half the time and the other one the other half of the time. Since I know that the male must a pair of the identical recessives at that locus, no matter which one he transmits, it has to be a recessive for cold nose. He can't tramsmit a dominant for warm nose because we know he has none. If he did it would have to be expressed since it only takes one for a dominant to express itself. Now we are confidant that no matter what he is mated to, he will transmit his gene for cold nose. Step 2 occurs when we select the mate he will be bred to. If she displays a field trait of a nose equal in coldness to his, we can be reasonably assured that she too is carrying the recessives for that trait of cols nose. Just like the male, no matter which gene she transmits of the 2 identical recessives she is carrying, it has to be a recessive that she gives to her offspring. We now have an offspring with one recessive from the father and one identical recessive from the mother. Since the offspring has a pair of the recessive genes at that locus, it will also have a cold nose. Now lets say the mother has a medium nose but one of her parents had a very cold nose. We know that her parent had to give her one recessive for cold nose and the other parent gave her a dominant medium nose gene. Now she is a in a hybrid state for medium nose because she only needs one gene at that locus for the dominant to show. We also know that she is carrying the recessive gene for cold nose because her cold nosed parent had to transmit one of 2 of the identical genes it had at that locus. When this female transmits her one gene in the egg to her offspring, half the time it will be the dominant gene for medium nose she carries, and the other half of the time it will be the hidden recessive she carries for cold nose. Since our male can only transmit either recessive gene for cold nose, we see that when it pairs with the mother recessive gene for the trait, the offspring will have a cold nose in the purebred state since it takes 2 identical recessives to be expressed. When the mothers dominant gene for medium nose is transmitted and pairs with the recessive gene for cold nose, the offspring will have a medium nose since it only takes one dominant at that locus for the dominant gene to express itself. This is how you can predict the ratio of pups with these traits froma given mating. Half will medium nose on the hybrid state and half will be cold nose in the purebred state. Recessives are easy to breed for because if you see the trait they have to be purebred for it and must transmit that gene. It is a simple matter of breeding to a mate that also shows the trait and all offspring will have it. There is some leeway here and some mixing does seem to occur but for the most part these are the averages you can expect.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:28 pm

I guess the secrets out. Cold nose is caused by recessive genes. You can put that on your list. A breeder could figure out the rest if they observe and make lots of matings but it would be a long hard road. I took a shortcut and studied the results of a large controlled experiment that was specifically designed to understand the inhertance node of individual traits. The dominant ones are harder to breed for because they can be in a hybrid state paired along with a recessive which can be transmitted to the offspring instead of the good dominant we want. Most bad genes are recessives and most good genes are dominant. This is s general rule and as we saw, some good traits are recessive. The dominant genes are harder to put in a purebred state and this is where linebreeding and culling can help. It is also why as Stan said, a lot of good dogs can't reproduce their likeness and fail as studs. Who knew!

diamond P · Post by **diamond P** » Fri Jun 27, 2003 8:28 pm

So ,likeness+ likeness=likeness or not? So how do I determine if certain traits are dominant or recessive ,by observing a certain trait and tracing it back in the pedigree? I am all for trying to take some of the guesswork out of breeding.

keep it going,this is interesting
chris

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 4:46 pm

ALL RIGHT BOB!!! Now we can have a discussion. I'm short on time right now but I'll be back later so I can read your posts carefully. MInd you if we don't agree it's just that we don't agree but on this subject we could go on for ever.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 5:01 pm

Wow. It's not often that I can't fully grasp something in one reading, but this is one of them. OK, I've read this cold-nosed thing 3 times and I think I've got your jist, Bob. Very interesting. Sounds logical enough. I just have a couple of questions (and I mean these very respectfully)...

1. Do you define 'cold-nosed' as a superior nose? (as I do - a good thing) or as some others do (a lack of brain power and just willing to bark on weaker scent).
2. What are the details of the supporting 'large, controlled experiment', and why are they sufficient to support your post conclusion?

It's my belief that a good, cold-nosed hound is superior in the field to a hot-nosed hound (yes, the kind that the vast majority of field trials reward, for various reasons). I'll take a big-nosed hound, who may be a bit mouthy once in a while (as a rule) , to kill a limit of rabbits on the ten worst scenting days of any given month (which seem to happen a lot), over any hot nosed International Field Champion that wins 100 field trials during great scenting days in May, June and July. It's this difference that, in my mind, separates field trial heros from many gundogs.

If this is a genuine discussion I think it may be one of the most important and groundbreaking that I've witnessed online.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:39 pm

The brain has to take it from nose an determine what to do with it. It is a combination of things that make it work or fail. You may have a hound that you can see has the scent but not enough to be sure and so, will hold its tongue or give it sparingly untill the scent gets stronger. As the hound adapts to the conditions it will come to realize what it has to work with and tongue accordingly. The hound has to determine the direction, the age or freshness of the scent(thus the difference between a "cold nose" and a "cold trialer").
This is interesting to pick apart and also overwelming to throw back together into one hound, once you've come to realize what all is involved. It is what makes some men throw up their hands and others cry. It is why Randall passed with such a worry on his mind. The work of so many years, will the boys understand, did I explain it well enough, will they thoughtlessly undo what has taken a lifetime to build.

If it were so easily done, the work would have been completed for us by now. Don't let it put you off on getting started but also relize the task at hand. You will come to appreciate the work that's been done before us...Patch

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:34 pm

When I talk of cold nose it is about the ability to smell. The trialers call it having a huge nose, referring to the ability to smell the game when there is very little scent. In relation a warm or medium nose dog can't smell that same track that the cold nose dog can smell. As Patch says, I am only talking about the ability to smell. Cold trailing traits are seperate from this. The ability to run the cold track is seperate from the ability to smell it. Some have said in the past that most dogs have the same ability to smell and other things are involved which determine if they use it. I strongly disagree with that. There is a big differance in the ability to smell scent just like there is a big differance in the ability to see or hear or sensitivity to pain etc. It is just too simple for all dogs to have the same nose. As to the cold trailers, that catch all term for bad trailers is confusing. There are talented cold trailers and there are poor cold trailers. Some folks won't like a cold nose dog because they relate it to poor cold trailers. That is a differant trait and I speak from experience. I think the big differance comes when a dog is either running the scent, or running the rabbit. Some dogs are satisfied to work the scent and some dogs work the scent because they know there is a rabbit on the other end and they want to get to the other end as soon as possible and the scent is there ticket to that goal. I know you have seen some bear dogs that could work a 2 day old track. I have seen coon dogs that could do it. I know these animals put off more scent but it is still impressive. How about a bloodhound that can trail a week old scent if condition are perfect. There are many variable sin this and we don't need to worry about them as long as we admit that a cold nose and poor tracking are not related except for the fact that they can be in the same dog. Hey Joe. If we don't agree please remember that I didn't write these genetic laws or discover them. That was done by a monk named Gregor Mendal and the cold nose is the same inheritance mode of the tall peas he used in his experiments. People had noticed for years that some traits seemed to skip a generation and they created all kinds of reasons for this, It wasn't until Mendal crossed a short pea strain to a tall pea strain and kept records that it was discovered that the MODE OF INHERITANCE was differant for differant traits. He finally figured out that there were recessive and dominant traits that were inherited in a consistant manner. When he crossed the short and tall peas, he found that the first generation offspring were always short. There was no inbetween or blending of hieght as one might expect. They were all the same hieght as the short parent. They were in a hybrid stae for shortness because the tall parent had passed hid recessive to the offsping, so now they were carrying it hidden and unexpressed. This compares to crossing a medium nose dog in the purebred state with a dominant trait on both chromosomes to a cold nose dog with the recessive gene on both chromosomes. All offspring will be medium nose because the parent was in a purebred state for the gene, just like the short peas. What happens when the hybrid offspring are mated together. Since we know one of their parents was tall, we know they have to carry the tall gene hidden and that half the time they will transmit it to the offsping. When the hybrid offsping are mated, 1/4 of the offsping will recieve a tall recessive gene from each parent and BOOM, you have tall peas. Same with nose. Since we knew the family we could accurately predict that the 3rd generation would be 1/4 tall peas and in our pups we would know that even though both parents were medium nose, the 3rd generation would have 1/4 cold nose dogs. These are general rules and there are always exceptions but these are the what is now know as SCIENTIFIC LAWS that Mendel worked out. It becomes law after it can be repeated time and time again by anyone using the the correct procedures in experiments.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:26 pm

Bob, we're in full agreement in regards to this cold-nosed thing. I pretty well grasp Mendel/genetics, but I'll be honest and say that my head swims when applying it to these different scenarios; especially as it applies to cold-nosed dogs.

I like a hound that can pop off on a ten minute old check, just when you're convinced the track is dead, and take it out. That's my idea of a gundog. So many of the winter days here the track is just about cold all day long. Average dogs can run, but it's not pretty. If they lose for any length of time it's just about over. It's those above average hounds (cold nosed -- and yes, I know there more that goes into it than nose, but that's the bulk of it) that I call gundogs. I've seen six hounds put their nose in a hare track in January, when it's 2 degrees and windy, on an old poiwder snow, and look at me like there's nothing there they can run. The seventh hound comes by me and I put their nose in the track and they let out a bark and take the track. That's a gundog. I don't care how great their super days are in June -- to me, it's how bad is their worst day in January. Nose is where it's at when I want to kill winter hare.

I've discovered that these really good cold-nosed hounds are almost freaks. They come around when you least expect it. You can breed two of them together and get a litter of decent dogs, but very rarely do they produce anything like their nose.

So, this leads me to my next question...
Is it possible to put this into layman's terms so that we have a bit more than a crapshoot when selecting a breeding partner? I'm getting the impression that we can do better than best-to-best, but I'm foggy on how. Any input? (and please, type it slowly so I can keep up

)

laal · Post by **laal** » Sun Jun 29, 2003 7:05 pm

Patch you are a wise man.

I sure like this thread and I hope I can stay inline?

I would like to know why a beagle should give mouth if it ain't running a rabbit.

If a beagle ain't doing what it was bred to do it should not be saying it is.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:45 am

laal wrote:I would like to know why a beagle should give mouth if it ain't running a rabbit.

If a beagle ain't doing what it was bred to do it should not be saying it is.

laal, that's the precise lack of understanding for the difference in 'cold nose' and 'cold trail' that makes this such a difficult topic to talk about. Cold nosed means they can run a track that other Beagles can't smell. Cold trail can mean barking on an old track and not producing anything, but not necessarilly. If a dog can run a rabbit to your gun, and other dogs with him can't smell it well enough to bark, is it cold-trailing?

Down south you guys can get away with a hot-nosed dog. I'd probably prefer that too if I gunned down there exclusively. You guys don't get reall long stretches of real tough scenting days, apparently. Our season lasts 6 months up here and those hot-nosed Beagles can't consistently get it done for about 3 of those months. When you go 2 or 3 weeks in a row when there's just hardly no scent because it's real cold and the snow is old, you begin to look for new homes for dogs that can/will only run a hot track -- because even a track made right now is considered 'cold' to these dogs. I've seen top dogs from down your way stick their nose in a 10 second old track in January and look at me like I'm a fool for telling them there's a hare that was just there. That rots.

Yes, a cold-nosed dog can and will run a track with less scent in it, but if they do it and don't produce a rabbit consistently, then they're culls. It still takes a brain to know when they should go out on it and when they should just keep looking. A dog that's not smart enough to know the difference isn't cold-nosed, he's just a dumb cold-trailer, and to me, they're culls just as much as a hot-nosed dog that will only bark on a lot of scent.

I've seen plenty of times, with a pack of 3 or 4 dogs, where one dog is running the rabbit steady and the others only bark when they come up on a spot where the hare stopped and sat for a few seconds, or it's out in the sun and there's a little more scent. If you witness something like this for a week straight it really opens your eyes to the difference in gundogs that excell in the north. Without that one dog you're not going to shoot many rabbits. Down south I'm convinced that a real good cold-nosed dog would still be an asset because they'e smart enough to adapt and won't pop off on every cold track in the woods. They'll probably the ones who'd be able to run a track on a real hot, dry day when most other dogs just couldn't smell it enough to run it. These dogs don't come along every day, but it's awful nice to know they're in the dogbox when you've got to hunt and you suspect scenting conditions aren't going to be very good. It's quite a task, but they're definitely worth trying to breed for.

BUNNY · Post by **BUNNY** » Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:19 am

I AGREE WITH CHRIS, I THINK YOU GUYS ARE TALKING FASTER THAN
I CAN LISTEN , I HAVE TO READ MOST POSTS TWICE. BUT PLEASE CONTINUE, YOU GOT ME HOOKED.

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