Oversized Dogs Dont Belong

TC · Post by TC » Fri May 19, 2006 10:07 pm

I dont think it has anything to do with bein Scared to run with the big Dogs!!!!
Its the RULES!!!!
the US Beagle standard calls for the breed to be not larger than 15" in the UK and Down under and europe it is 16"
If ya want big Dogs get a harrier!!!!
I have one here that is 16" just lacked a few points to champ before he measured out NOW that bein said i COULD run him And maybe WIN
BUT why?????? he is to BIG... I run him all the time just dont trial him because its against the RULES. Would i call a measure on a dog i thought was oversized???
you betcha in A heartbeat!!!!
thats why you wont See me runnin in any ARHA Trails
i dont like conflict dont like gettin Folks POed at me BUT I would be callin for a measure.
As far as the big Dogs havin an Advantage i just dont see it unless your trialin on Snow or swamps
One thing that i have noticed is that the bigger Dogs seem to get laid up more often with injurys gettin Hurt tryin to get over or THROUGH what they caint get under!!!
Now as far as just gettin together and Runnin BRINGem On I love watchin the BIG dogs run!!!!!!!!!!

show dog · Post by **show dog** » Sat May 20, 2006 9:12 am

I have watched field beagle measuring go on. I agree, if the dog won't stand properly, it should be dismissed as is the case in the show ring. Beagles CAN be TRAINED. Takes some time and trialers seem to feel these extra steps in training are not necessary. Same as catching beagles. The training should be there so marshalls aren't waiting hours after a trial is called to see that the last dog is caught. Both issues are very frustrating and time consuming.

Rules are rules and 13 and 15 are what is the rule. If people don't like the rule, lobby for change. Otherwise, buy/breed another hound.

IMO Carolyn

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Sat May 20, 2006 10:44 am

show dog wrote:I have watched field beagle measuring go on. I agree, if the dog won't stand properly, it should be dismissed as is the case in the show ring. Beagles CAN be TRAINED.

IMO Carolyn

Also, at a conformation show if anyone was ever caught kicking a dog they would face serious reprimands and BIG fines and probably a suspension from all AKC activities for a year or more.
You shouldn't be kicking dogs period. That is not the way a good handler/dogman treats his hounds.
And If you are trying to break up a fight instead of kicking the dogs apart try banging two bowls together over their heads or spray them with the hose.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:08 pm

TC wrote:I dont think it has anything to do with bein Scared to run with the big Dogs!!!!
Its the RULES!!!!
the US Beagle standard calls for the breed to be not larger than 15" in the UK and Down under and europe it is 16"
If ya want big Dogs get a harrier!!!!
I have one here that is 16" just lacked a few points to champ before he measured out NOW that bein said i COULD run him And maybe WIN
BUT why?????? he is to BIG... I run him all the time just dont trial him because its against the RULES. Would i call a measure on a dog i thought was oversized???
you betcha in A heartbeat!!!!
thats why you wont See me runnin in any ARHA Trails
i dont like conflict dont like gettin Folks POed at me BUT I would be callin for a measure.
As far as the big Dogs havin an Advantage i just dont see it unless your trialin on Snow or swamps
One thing that i have noticed is that the bigger Dogs seem to get laid up more often with injurys gettin Hurt tryin to get over or THROUGH what they caint get under!!!
Now as far as just gettin together and Runnin BRINGem On I love watchin the BIG dogs run!!!!!!!!!!

Hi TC,
Beagles do go oversize, some due to breeding and some, due to the better food we have today.
I don't want a harrier, as they were derived from the cross of the beagle and the old southern hound. 21" is to big even for me...

I respectfully disagree, from what I have seen, on the larger hounds being more prone to injury than their smaller brother. Many of the small hounds I've seen, are infact, 13" legs on a 15" body. I've seen far fewer back injuries on the larger hounds, than on the little ones, because they are overlong, as a whole...imho, much harder to breed a proper proportioned little one, than it is, his bigger brother...

I agree, rules are rules, but I would never neglect a good one over a 1/2 inch...

TC · Post by TC » Sat May 20, 2006 1:28 pm

S.R.Patch wrote.

Beagles do go oversize, some due to breeding and some, due to the better food we have today.

You Got that right

GOOD to hear from you Patch
I have seen it before in my own breeding get 6 pups all stay a little over 14" but ONE

Many of the small hounds I've seen, are infact, 13" legs on a 15" body. I've seen far fewer back injuries on the larger hounds, than on the little ones, because they are overlong, as a whole...imho, much harder to breed a proper proportioned little one, than it is, his bigger brother...

I agree totally And myself I like the larger dogs over the smaller I also feel as far as injuries it depends on the terrain to REAL THICK low briars are the pits on the larger dogs most of the injuries i have seen are shoulder and neck frontend type I like keeping some of each in my pack BUT i dont trial those over 15" just because its THE RULES
NOW as you said a 1/4 or a 1/2 inch is not a good reason to get rid of a GOOD hound I have one that will measure 14 1/2 one time and 14" another What i am talkin about is WHEN YOU KNOW a hound is in the 16" range and you trial it anyways if it gets called for measure and measures out DONT pitch a fit about it YOU knew goin in you were takin your chances runnin a oversized hound so when the fella calls for the measure take it like a man and go on..........OR Even better yet DO NOT Enter it at All

Danny King · Post by **Danny King** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:38 pm

huckelbarry ive seen it all go on like randy said oh yea what you dont know is he knows a hell of a lot more about beagles and trialing in arha then you will ever know but what he said was correct. who cares if dogs are over. and maybe you can get some nads and post this topick on the arha board and see what happens.

Danny King

Roy Pasmore · Post by **Roy Pasmore** » Sun May 21, 2006 5:43 am

I agree with huckleberry saying its OK or that it don`t matter if they or over size. Is in my openion like saying its OK to buddy judge.And before you tell me how much knowledge some one has about dogs. I would like to say I am 73 years old ran beagles and coonhounds all my life.In fact I am the 3rd generation of houndsman in my family. I am the president of our LP club and chairman of the board of our UKC club. A rule is there for A purpose and there is know excuse for breaking it. Roy Pasmore

ycedy · Post by **ycedy** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:03 am

I don't want to step on toes here. But will speak my piece. I run Patch and they are full 15 and can fly. I went to my first trial last year. Got a first and a 5th. entered 3 dogs and one measured out too tall. That is ok with me since I only went to see good dogs run meet new friends and have my son handle dogs. I was suprised at how grown men take this to the point of getting feelings hurt. We run in E. Texas and La. where swamp rabbits run like deer. If my buddy has 13in. dogs they can keep up with the big dogs runnem. If my dogs get beat that is ok. I want complain over the size of the dog. I will run my against anyone any time. My two hunting buddies, (Walter and Chris) I'm sure will do the same. When it is all said and done lets drop them down, load the gun leave the shock collars home and let see true rabbit running and gun hunting on a cold mourning in Febuary, With no deer races. And lets not forget to bring the kids.
Ced

hardtack · Post by **hardtack** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:36 am

backyard beagler · Post by **backyard beagler** » Sun May 21, 2006 3:01 pm

I have never been to a trial in my life but why have rules if you are not going to follow them? where will it stop if you feel like its ok to bend this rule a little? its not about if a man is scared to run with other dogs or not if he was on here complaining about his dog getting picked up for barking to much everybody would be yelling rules are rules get better dogs

beerdrinking bob · Post by **beerdrinking bob** » Sun May 21, 2006 4:57 pm

i cant believe all the people that like to argue the rules. its not ok for any dog to be over 15". thats the rules obide by them and this topic will go away. as for randy talking about aks trials ive ran a few and placed but thats the buddy system if ive ever seen it. i had a judge tell me who was going to win 2 days befor the trial because the dog needed a win to finish. he was right she won. buddy system i think so

gus · Post by **gus** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:32 am

The word "Beagle Trial" means it is a limited size dog. If you want to run Fox Hounds on rabbits then start an organization. If a ribbon or trophy means that much to you, build a show case and buy the trophys. If you don't have some rules and follow them, what does the trophy that is won a trial where judges select the rules they will follow mean? You guys bitch about crooked judges then advocate breaking rules before the trial starts.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:30 pm

TC wrote:S.R.Patch wrote.
Beagles do go oversize, some due to breeding and some, due to the better food we have today.
You Got that right
GOOD to hear from you Patch
I have seen it before in my own breeding get 6 pups all stay a little over 14" but ONE

Many of the small hounds I've seen, are infact, 13" legs on a 15" body. I've seen far fewer back injuries on the larger hounds, than on the little ones, because they are overlong, as a whole...imho, much harder to breed a proper proportioned little one, than it is, his bigger brother...

I agree totally And myself I like the larger dogs over the smaller I also feel as far as injuries it depends on the terrain to REAL THICK low briars are the pits on the larger dogs most of the injuries i have seen are shoulder and neck frontend type I like keeping some of each in my pack BUT i dont trial those over 15" just because its THE RULES
NOW as you said a 1/4 or a 1/2 inch is not a good reason to get rid of a GOOD hound I have one that will measure 14 1/2 one time and 14" another What i am talkin about is WHEN YOU KNOW a hound is in the 16" range and you trial it anyways if it gets called for measure and measures out DONT pitch a fit about it YOU knew goin in you were takin your chances runnin a oversized hound so when the fella calls for the measure take it like a man and go on..........OR Even better yet DO NOT Enter it at All

Hi TC,
I don't see where shoulder & neck injuries have anything to do with the size of the hound. A poor shoulder, is a poor shoulder and the neck is either set-on correctly or it's not.
And, to clarify, my statement to others, "I agree, rules are rules, but I would never neglect a good one over a 1/2 inch", was meant to say, I wouldn't neglect breeding to a good one, because he was a 1/2 over the wicket...

...plus, I don't have $20. to throw away getting measured out...

Small time · Post by **Small time** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:38 pm

I could not agree more about oversized dogs competeing. The one problem I have consistently seen with the NKC/ARHA is that the measuring device used is not appropriate. You cannot stick a 15 inch pvc stand over a dog and tell if it is over or under. I do not trial but have been to a couple of the clubs and seen the same device used. I have noticed that the AKC has a more effective means of measuring a hound. Maybe the NKC/ARHA clubs should invest in these type of stands to ensure appropriate measurement. If its the individual doing the measurement that is trying to sneak his buddies dog in, then he needs to receive discplinary action, if not termination of his judges licenses.

HatterasBob · Post by **HatterasBob** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:42 pm

I don't like unenforced/unenforceable rules. Make rules and play by them or get rid of the rules. Does a 1/8" bother be, NO! First rule of scientific study, is never measure anything smaller then the gradations on the measuring devise. That means, if the measuring stand is maked off in 1/8" increments, then a dog is 15" until it hits the 15 1/8" line. If the stand was more accurate then that, the manufacture would have put 1/16" increments, or 1/32" or even 1/64". Get real.

That being said, I'm not afraid to drop my 12" bitches with the 16" oversized dogs you describe. If you notice in humans, the fastest sprinter or the best marathoner are not the tallest runners, in fact maybe just the opposite.

I look forward to running some ARHA trials in the near future. I'm going to hurt some oversized dog owner's feelings;-)

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