Changes for L.P.

[WrongsideRandy]

Which is tougher to judge........LP or PP?

I have had a couple of guys who judge both tell me that PP is harder to judge, just wondering what some of you guys who judge both think. I know neither one is easy.

See ya,
Randy

[swing]

Randy,
Are you even allowed to ask questions with the abbrev. P.P. in it? LOL
I aint got a clue I have never judged P.P.
All I am saying is their needs to be more minuses dealt out in L.P. and extra mouth would be a good place to start.

[Buckeye Bob]

Enforce the existing rulebook on pulling out of the check area,if the rule was understood and than enforced those dogs would be weeded out and start to not show up for trials.Also,it is inexcusable that LP still is not certifying champians.Think of it....if you owned a scoring machine check dog but you knew he had no linecontrol would you even bother bringing him to hunts? because he could never certify.I went to a coon dog trial in Kenton Ohio last year and watched hounds with more greyhound than anything in them race down a path to see who would tree first.Talked to an oldtimer there and he said years ago it started as a fun way to see who had the fastest hunting dog.They would lay out a scent trail for a ways and then release the dogs.Started to get bigtime,lots of money in purses.Guys started to cross greyhound to get more speed.It is now to the point that they run down a marked lane headup with no attempt at trailing,noone even tries to pretend that these are hunting dogs anymore.Is that where LP is headed?Breed to score points not to circle a rabbit consistantly?All things considered I like LP over all the other formats but I think certification is a nobrainer.

[Laurel Mtn Kennels]

The problem I have with scoring shorter checks is it makes the jump meaningless. I judged the Grand that won the World this year in the semi-final round. It had 1 strike, 2 jumps & 4 checks. The dog that finished second in the cast had 6 checks & a minus 10 for pulling out of the check. If we would have been scoring short checks the dog that finished 2nd would have won this round. I don't want to loose the value of the jump.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[bowhunter59]

u get 30 points for a jump how much more u want?i understand these dogs nowadays some will stand let another dog do all the work then check them to death but a good dog can jump and also checkwould make me mad tho to see a jump score a little more or a check a little less!and enforce the minuses more!

[swing]

There hasnt been much talk on how they paid the judges what do you all think about the way they did that, myself I think instead of 1 lucky guy or the way it ended up 3 lucky guys got extra money, I think they could have distributed it out and paid ALL the judges a little more a round and it would have made more sense to me. Thats just my opinion tho.
Back to the dog thing.
I say judge the dogs an hour to an hour and a 1/2, because by the time you call time outs and stuff thats about where you end up anyways and dont worry bout killing yourself to score a 15 second check, I am sure I have gave a dog a check before at 13 or 14 seconds and by the rule that isnt right but when you are running and trying to count it gets a little hard at times.
And if you say this is just another way to end up with buddy judging, guys if they are going to buddy judge you arent going to win either way.
How are we bettering the breed if we have champs that cant even circle a rabbit?

[Buckeye Bob]

Swing I just noticed your new quote.....you should be called "Spoon"cuz you keep stirring the pot.LOL.Did you notice that no one else is calling for certification?Could it be that it is already out of hand and there are too many dogs that could not circle if their very life depended on it.By the way,not so long ago that is how it was.... can't bring a rabbit around ?take a dirt bath.

[chad24]

Everyone has some good ideas for some new rules. I am still stuck on the check rule. Now lets think about this a second. We have a cast of dogs thats running a rabbit . Dog A,B,C,D and E. The dogs come to the first check.Dog A grabs the check in 8 seconds. Next check dog B grabs the check in 8 seconds. Next check dog C grabs the check in 10 seconds. Next check dog D grabs the check in 5 seconds. The next check dog E grabs the check in 17 seconds. Now dog E gets rewarded 25 points, which was the first "real'' check taken ( by ARHA rules) but guys and gals we all know that we want a dog ( like dogs A,B,C and D ) that can grab a 3-8 minute checks or not even check at all, just flat out burn the rabbit up with no break down, but ARHA rewards a dog that takes longer to find the rabbit ! This makes no sence at all - NONE. ARHA rewards dogs that can not find the rabbit until 15 seconds or longer, no way. Now the extra 50 points many has talked about on this topic on L.P. I believe that rule would be a HUGE mistake. Why? Because this opens up the "buddy" thing agian. (example) John Doe is judging a cast and his "buddy" has a dog in the same cast, We all know John will give his "buddy" the 50 extra points. Why? Because its the judges opinion about the cast, like the hunting/handling rule. Now this puts the out come of the cast back into the "buddy judges hands. Let knock down the check time and let the hounds make the final call on who is the winner. This is my opinion. May all not agree but we (or i do any ways) feel the buddy judging is getting better and needs to stay that way. I feel my dog already has to beat 4 other dogs. No way the dog can beat the 4 other dogs plus the judge. Thanks,Chad24

[kjohns]

I agree with Chad on the 50 pt. rule. Don't get me wrong, I know it would help in certain situations to bring the best dog back, but the reason I like LP is it is based on a point system. Not the judges opinion like other formats.

I also do agree certification needs to be put in place and for the life of me, I can't understand why it hasn't been yet. I just didn't mention it in my last post because it had already been mentioned.

[WELLS WOODS]

I've never been to an ARHA trial, but I've judged in AKC; we don't use a point system, but if we did I would give the same amount of points for all checks except a real long check, say longer than 2 minutes. A dog that doesn't give up on these hard checks and saves the rabbit should get double check points. How you would demerit dogs for swinging, skirting, backtracking, getting wide in the check area, etc. with a point system and keep everyone in agreement without the handlers seeing the action the judges are; I don't know? As far as jump points; Are points given to the dog that actually jumps the rabbit or the first one that barks on a hot line? Many times I've seen a hound tearing up the brush and bump a rabbit in front of another dog that may not have been hunting as hard , but it gets lucky and either crosses the track and opens first or gets a sight chase. I would just score every dog that hunted hard and demerit or even disqualify a hound that stood around more than 2 or 3 minutes without hunting.

[DarrinG]

I was in a cast about a year ago and when it was over and we were gathered around signing score cards, the judge told me in front of the whole cast that if my dog could wear a watch or count to 15, she would have won the cast by a mile, that she checked the others to death but only grabbed 1 check over 15 seconds. He stated that she got numerous checks in the range of 5-13 seconds, but placed 2nd in the cast.

Now I'm not sore over that, as I knew the rules going into it and the judge did his job excellently, right by the rules, and according to the rules, the dog that won the cast did so squarely and fairly according to the rules. But it just doesnt make sense to me to see a dog towing the mark get shorted because of a 15 second rule.

As for the 50 point "cast controller" suggestion, it was only a suggestion that I have heard others at trials talk about. It could be abused I guess by crooked judges, but usually a crooked judge will be crooked in some way anyhow. How about this....at the end of the cast, the judge and all handlers present submit a vote on which dog most dominated the races?

Oh yeah, I'm also 110% for certifying Little Pack Champs!

[Laurel Mtn Kennels]

As for the 50 point thing I agree with Chad. As for the rest of this We already have what you guys are asking for, Its called Progressive Pack.

[swing]

In my opinion I like the 50 point rule, the way I look at it if they are going to cheat they are going to cheat with it or without it.
And 1 question for Rick.
Do you think a dog dont need minus points for running 40 to 50 yards off the line and giving mouth?

[Jamie Rice]

I ran one little pack and it was enough to do me. I ran several progressive pack and like them for the most part... Although the mouthness should've been minused more than it was. A dog that got 10 to 20 foot from check area was minused quicker than your head could spin, but one that stood there and blew a hole in the ground and running ghost rabbits(You guys know the dog I'm referring too.) was continously winning casts. I figured I'd quit wasting my time.

Nevertheless enoough venting... Buckeye Bob not only should little pack have a certification process, but every single beagling format and registry should. There's several dogs that finish for their championships in other registries and formats that couldn't circle their own rabbit as well.

[WrongsideRandy]

As for the rest of this We already have what you guys are asking for, Its called Progressive Pack.

Quick checks, no swinging, no pulling out on checks.......next thing you know they'll be asking that no Branko blood be entered

lol