A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
COB4190 wrote:I have been following this post for some time. I fail to see why there is so much talk over this subject unless you have a hound that is over 15 inches. ... Fred Hausmann/Chairman of the Board/Little Pack Division
I don't have a dog over 15", but I am upset about this rule change. As the Master of Hounds and Secretary/Treasurer of my club, I am upset because decisions are made with no input from us on how this might affect our club. No one asked our opinion. No one sent out a survey to clubs. No one even discussed this decision and how it will impact ARHA. Why not deal with real issues like declining entries, limited training for judges, and loss of clubs?
I don't have any problem with measuring dogs, but this idea of an "official measurement" that is only official until someone wants a dog measured just does not make sense to me. Either it is official or not.
This decision was made with no input from clubs or participants. If it is such an issue, why didn't anyone survey clubs? Why weren't there surveys at the World Hunt? Why isn't a survey sent to all owners of ARHA registered hounds? The role of the Board of Directors should be to represent the members. Dictating new rules is not serving those that you are supposed to represent.
Rule changes, including measuring dogs can make our organization better, but it needs to be well-thought out, and supported by the majority of members. I wonder what percentage of the trialers in ARHA support this?
I am of the opinion if it is not broke dont fix it. By that I mean the little pack trials seem to be doing fine and attendance at the World Hunt even in the face of four dollar gas prices didnt seem to be hurting as 668 entries were only down by two from last year. I believe if dogs are being ran that are over there is now a method in place to challenge these dogs, and like someone posted I didnt see a single dog get measured out this year. If no dogs were measured out this year then how can this be a problem? I do however see measuring every dog before every hunt causing problems, not to mention the problem I foresee with officialy measuring dogs.
I dont have many complaints about this organization but it does seem to me that JCM might have a point as he said the
role of the board is to represent the members of this organization. I would like to see maybe an open forum or town hall question and answer session every year at the world. This would be a good place to air out everyones problems throughout the year and address these issues, instead of doing it behind computers and closed doors. Maybe voting on some of the decisions made by rule committees and leadership would solve some of the problems of the people who arent in the loop of the decision makers. I just hate to see the bickering and arguing that brings organizations like this to a division among the members. Any open dialogue between members and the leadership of this organization has to be a positive thing for the future direction of the organization.
Gabe Miskimen
Miskimen Kennels
LPGRCH M & M's Little Mischief
LPGRCH Chester's Little Charmer Andy
LPRCH Branko's Cool Ringo
JCM great post. His posts sums up the whole problem. We need to vote on any changes as an organization this gives everyone a voice.
The entries at the world hunt were not down but if you look at the numbers at the local clubs throughout the year numbers are down it is getting harder & harder to keep a club running. I don't know about other states but in Ohio clubs are disappearing.
How will this measuring thing help the local club? It will not help them at all, it gives all clubs something else to do when running a hunt and of course if anyone permenant measures a dog they collect more money to send to NKC do they get to keep some of this money?
R CH B CH Denniston's Big River May Fly
R CH Hurry Up Curly
R CH Little Valley Claire
R CH B CH Hurry Up It's All Speculation
i Agree 100 percent with jim no one was every ask how to fix a problem that only exsist in very few minds. If this was such a problem tell me how many dogs have every been put out for a year after mesuring out three times. I bet the answer is none a big fat 0. And to have to mesurer a dog in or out at the beginning of a hunt is one thing but to actually mesurer the dog and then put the mesurerment down on the entry form this will take forever. Closing for a hunt will have to be 5 in the morning so u dont lose daylight for your hunt. When the dead line is 7 u have to get up by 3 to drive 2 hours for a hunt now u will have to get up at 1 or 2 in the morning to meet the dead line for a club hunt. WOW!!!!!! You know whats funny i seen someone say about a rule committee in the post this has not been around for a while. When was the last time we presidents of these clubs have voted on anything. I around 6 years or better and we use to have meetings at the world about issues. I remember the first world hunt my wife and i went to the whole election of excutive officers and nominations were on the loud speacker and we heard everything from are camper those days are gone. WHY? I have always been told two sets of eyes are better then one as well as conversation amoung intellengent people seem to solve problems better then a couple of people try to make all the dicessions. I was told by a watch dog official that when the annoucement was made about the new mesurer rule that the was the first he had heard of it. He had no idea it was coming. WHY. Just like the judges numbers why do we has clubs not have a master copy of the judges. Clubs would pay for this it just makes sense. Its hard enough to get judges let allow have one forget his card and not let him judge because of it. When the club could look his number up for him with a master copy of all judges. It just makes since. Two dogs tie in the finals do not find a rabbit and u let the judge pick a dog on hunting and handling why not go back to the two rounds prior and add up the scores and the dog with the highest score wins and take it out of the judges hand and put it back on the dogs. IT IS THE FINALS THE MOST IMPORTANT PLACE IS ON THE LINE. I am just saying. ok enough of that we have a good thing here why not let some of these people that have been around a long time have some input. IT JUST MAKES SENSE!
JCM I agree 100% on this problem. The ARHA reminds me of our government. It seems they always want a new program in place without any consideration to what it is going to cost the people in time and money. They should remember the old KISS rule ( keep it simple stupid ). I have never been to a trial where there has been a big problem with having dogs measured. Every once in a while you will see one or two dogs being measured but not every dog there. Do these people not know they have a good thing going so why keep screwing with it. Usually it is the same people that are requesting to measure a dog and that is their right but don't run it in the ground and have all dogs measured regardless of size.I feel sorry for the people that are running the hunts to start with without putting more of a load on them. It seems to me it's just another way to gouge us for more money so we don't have to wait in line.
If people are or should be concerned about oversized dogs being allowed into trials then tell me if any of this makes sense.
1. Start by properly training anyone who is allowed to measure a dog. And I do wanna say that I do not understand the "official" measurement thing. I'm with you guys on this one, either it's official or it isn't. What's official about it if anyone can challenge it at anytime?
2. Any dog under a certain age would either be measured at every trial until they get to an age where they should no longer be growing and therefore would fall under the "adult" regulations to follow.
3. Any dog over the age limit would need to be measured 1 time at say 2-3 different clubs and would then receive an "official" measurement as to not be challenged in the future. It may also be eligible for official measurement status through another means set up by the members for say the guys that generally don't travel but do enjoy attending trials at their local club. Then they would have the choice to either have to show up early at every trial or take the time to get the official measurement so they don't have to get up too early if they'd like to sleep in a little..........their choice.
4. Maintain a rule that any dog that measures over a certain number of times is no longer eligible to participate in a trial. Maybe this one is a little harsh but I can see both sides to this because bringing a dog that is borderline can be a waste of time for the owner of the dog as well as for everyone else.
See you guys keep talking about getting membership and trial attendance #'s up and you say that things like this will only hurt those #'s. I agree that it may keep a few guys home but I think you need to make up your minds about the rule as a whole. Either get rid of the rule altogether or find a better way to police and enforce it. Being wishy-washy with it doesn't seem to be doing anybody any good. There may be bigger fish to fry so to speak in regards to what needs to be looked at and possibly better enforced and I can understand that part too. But don't just disregard the possible concerns of others just because you may not see it as an issue.
Bunnyblaster
"You can't change the past but you can ruin the present by worrying about the future."
There was nothing wishy washy about the rule before. You had the right to measure any time, if somebody chose not to, then they should have no gripes. People say don't gripe if your dog measures out, well, don't gripe if you chose not to measure and enforce the rule. Myself, next year I'm going to be getting back to what got me back into beagles to begin with, gun hunting. The heck with spending a small fortune and my weekend to run my dog for an hour. I enjoy seeing people and competing so i will still go some, but it won't be like the last few years.
Todd Yates
Maple Hill Beagles
Poplar Bluff, MO
RIP LP RCH TY'S MAPLE HILL MIKEY LP GRRCH TY'S MAPLE HILL MOJO "no longer own, but still claim the rabbit crazy sucker"
maplehill, I was talking about the people that fall into the "who cares if the dogs a little too big" category. It sure sounds to me like the lack of knowledge and enforcement of the rules is the real problem.........and it doesn't matter if it's size or performance in the field. And why should you have to call a dog to the stick anyway? It's the rules of the registry/format so why don't they check em all and do it right?
What is the most dogs you all see at an average trial? Not a world hunt but a trial at your l local club? And how long does it take to measure a dog?
The people that I really do feel bad for are the ones that give their all and are as honest as the day is long. They get to hear all this crap as their "atta-boy" for all their hard work.
This subject has been strung out for waaaaaay too long. IMO, it's stuff like this that'll keep just as many people from attending trials.........not the fact that they can't run their 15 1/4" dog in it.
Bunnyblaster
"You can't change the past but you can ruin the present by worrying about the future."
COB4190 wrote:
I have been following this post for some time. I fail to see why there is so much talk over this subject unless you have a hound that is over 15 inches. ... Fred Hausmann/Chairman of the Board/Little Pack Division
The problem is deeper then the over sized hound its about a majority of what people do or want. You do not change a rule or fix a problem without input from a majority. This is called DEMOCRACY. That is the real issue. You have very few people that have a problem with the mesurer rule. So here is the question. How many people out there have ever mesurered a dog. I will start me never. Been doing this since 1988 and i can count on my hands how many times i have seen this done and i average 20 to 25 trials a year and it is always the same people which is fine by me but the are not the majority the are the minority. So if we are going to protect the minority we are in serios trouble in this country. I always thought it was about majority rules did this change when i was not looking.
The only training for measuring in ARHA was a picture hanging up at the World Hunt. And then, they even admitted that the picture was wrong. I was lucky enough to have been trained by George Pirman many years ago at an AKC Judging Seminar. Most people in ARHA have never been shown the correct way to measure.
If they are going to measure, why didn't they have times set up at the World Hunt and the other Big 5 hunts for demonstrations? Why didn't they bring in dogs, and let many different people measure them to practice and learn? Why didn't they bring in an expert that has taught measuring (even if it was from another association) to instruct Breed Instructors and Master of Hounds?
I agree with Frank, the point is not about measuring dogs. The point is you have an appointed Board that is making decisions without considering what individuals and clubs want. The reason this measuring rule and this idea of "official measurement" is so controversial is because it was done based on the decision of two people with disregard for the majority in ARHA. For many years, Board members were voted on and rule changes were proposed by clubs and voted on. Why did that change?
I believe ARHA is a great association of people and a good method for evaluating hounds. I would think that anyone involved in running ARHA would welcome input and ideas to keep the association strong.
Nothing else needs to be said. Fred do you have anything you would like to say about these to comments i would love to here it. if not on the computer you can call me you have my number.
Simple fact is you dont see dogs called out because of retaliation, especially at Big 5 hunts!!
Ole so n so calls out somebodys dog then the threats start, right at the stake!!
Thats why the rule was implemented, no one calls out dogs whether they are 16 or not. We all know some one that runs a big dog or have even run one ourselves
They are cleanning up their organization and we all have options.
SUCCESS- When preparation and opportunity cross paths!
