What still constitutes a bloodline

[Bev]

In the scenario where one dog runs a track and circles a rabbit back to the gun and the other dogs never bark, do you argue the dogs that never bark are smarter?

Have you had that happen? Because Norwester's bitch failed to bring the rabbit to the gun. If you have indeed had that happen, and the dog brought the rabbit around to the gun, I'd say you had one smart dog in the pack and the rest didn't know what they were doing.

With coyote, bear, cat, lion hunting a dog that can cold trail a 6-10 hour old track is very valuable. It takes a real smart dog to do it and do it effectively.

So you agree it takes brains, because several breeds of dogs are used for hunting those animals. I think they have the same scenting capacity, but they also have the brains/experience to know what it takes to get that particular animal going. It's still brains at work here, not nose.

The best snow dog I owned could be taken out 2 hours after a fresh snow and if I could find a track made since the snow I could tell her to stay on it and she would work it to the jump. Did this MANY times. Have not owned a dog since that would or could do it. This little gyp was the smartest beagle I have ever owned.

Here again, you agree that it's brains and not nose.

I dont agree that all dogs smell the exact same. Physical traits are given in measure linked to genetics and its not exclusively tied to brains. With that line of thinking all good athletes have superior brains. A quick glance at the NFL, NBA, MLB will prove thats not true.

Now we're back to comparing apples to oranges. Unless due to some birth defect or injury, I bet those athletes all have approximately 5 million scent receptors in their noses, the same number of rods/cones in their eyes, the anatomy to hear at the same frequency range, the same amount of taste buds on their tongue...you get my drift. But, by that very statement, you have reinforced what I said that given the physical attributes are the same, their ability to process information differs.

[mybeagles]

Had this gyp in three different midwest trials where this happened. All three times she was removed and all three times the rabbit was produced. The judges explained they cant have a dog cold trailing. There were no break downs, once she opened she continued barking and making forward progress until the rabbit was jumped. Typically 50-100 yards before other dogs barked much but the rabbit was jumped. Once it was 90 deg, the other two times there was snow. Would you say she was smarter than the other dogs? I always believed her to have a better nose. Other dogs seemed to be trying to smell it but couldnt.

In reference to pro athletes your right its apples to oranges. They have more athletic ability. Same amount of muscles in the body. Same height, same weight but more ability, not more brains. Beagles have same amount of scent receptors but some have more ability. They smell better, some run faster, some hunt harder. I cant see it all being linked to brains, but if you believe that way, your entitled to your opinion. Dont think we will ever agree on this one.
To say a beagle smells rabbit but doesnt bark because he reasons that its not fresh enough to get a jump is giving a dog to much credit in my book.

[Steve Mikkelson]

I enjoy this topic.

The nose is like eyes I gotta believe. We all have two eyes of differing ability to see either close or far, but it has nothing to due with how smart we are. It's about the way the eyes process information and relay that information to the brain.

[Larry G]

Bev I saw where you wrote that if your dog Ozzie barks, the rabbit's up. Could it be that you mean if he barks, he has a line he can move? Many dogs find a line early in the morning where a rabbit had diddled around feeding, then hopped into cover and is in hiding. The line may well be hot enough so that the dogs can make good progress on it, but it is just a jumble of feeder tracks. Now, should a smart, keen nosed hound not call his packmates to help jump up the ol' bunny? Are you saying a dog is smart enough to know somehow if the rabbit is actually up and running just by smelling his tracks? I beg to differ. A dog does not know if a rabbit is up unless he sees it. A dog does not know if he is going the wrong way on a track he just found until he runs it a ways. All a dog knows is, he smells rabbit. If he can move it, he needs to call for help. Not to is to be a line stealer. If he can't move it he needs to keep quiet. It's very simple, a dog should tongue ALWAYS AND ONLY when making forward progress on a true line. I don't think I need to go into what a true line is, I hope.

[NorWester1]

A pug was an extreme example to make it obvious for folks like you.

The only thing made obvious for me is that you can't grasp a concept, and that might explain why you can't seem to get dogs that can run in -35 temps the way you want them to. Exactly where is the science that tells us that even though most all dog breeds share the same amount of scent receptors, not all of those receptors are developed equally? I didn't think so. You don't have the science on it and I doubt you can Google it up if you spend all day trying. This baloney about good nose/bad nose is what you've told yourself is the case, and it is you who cannot see the obvious.

The REALITY is, a Golden Retriever, a Rottweiler, a German Shepherd, a Doberman, and many, many other breeds - even mixed breeds, can smell just as well as your beagle. 220 million scent receptors is 220 million scent receptors, period. A Newfie can locate a drowning victim simply by the very diluted bit of scent that makes it to the water's surface. They use them because they are large enough to haul a body out if need be. We use beagles because they are small and fast. If nose is quite equal among so many different breeds, there is virtually NO DIFFERENCE among dogs of the same breed. The nose-to-mouth connection is largely determined by brains. It is what tells a dog when it's feasible to claim a line.

Consider the back-tracker. Dogs are at a check. Dog A takes the check out back-tracking -- tonguing like a mo-fo. The other 4 dogs ignore him and continue searching. Is this because they don't have as good a nose as dog A?

Consider the truely, what is loosely called the "cold-nosed" dog. He's out there popping off on scent laid down the night before, and the other dogs are not. Do you think the other dogs cannot smell what he's smelling? Sure they can. They simply have the brains to recognize it as an old track, and therefore don't claim it as a viable one.

Consider the average walkie-talkie brace dog. I rescued one of these one time and had him in the back yard with my other dogs for a while. I would let the dogs down into the yard each evening to exercise. This brace dog never shut up from the time he was put on the ground until I put him back above ground. He barked on squirrel tracks, he barked on my footprints, he barked on all the other dogs' tracks, and at one point...when he'd run out of a track, he turned around and tongued his own track back the side-length of my fence. There's a reason why brace dogs are carried to the line and put down on it. If they didn't keep them off the ground until the moment of truth, nobody would know when the chase really began. Did they breed better "more developed" noses into those dogs? No, they bred the brains out.

So I have to go back to your scenario where your outcrossed female had some 5-minute spurts of "running" and the other 4 did not. I would challenge you that your 4 other dogs smelled exactly what she was smelling. She considered it a viable run and said so. The other 4 didn't agree.

There isn't a nickel's worth of difference in the noses of all beagles. It's all about how they "choose" to use it, and that is brains. You see that dynamic in humans, too.

I think you're the one having trouble grasping concepts here. All dogs are the same physiologically speaking. 2 eyes, 4 legs, 2 ears, teeth, etc,etc. Some have areas of their anatomy however that have been developed with selective breeding within their field of expertise that makes them different and stand out from the norm. Is it impossible that this may also be going on with a hounds nose and it's scent receptors to some degree, even the smallest degree? I can't quote you the text and content from a scientific report stating so, however I asked you to show me scientific reference where it's stated it COULD NOT BE and you didn't produce anything. What I wrote is just a hypothosis based on other physical trends with other animals and I gave examples, nothing more. I may indeed be wrong in that hypothosis and I'm not afraid to admit or state my thoughts.

If we are going to start in about science don't you think it should be approached with an unbiased, objective, critical thought process. You respond simply with what you've been told without ever questioning and appear to be lacking the capacity for such an objective approach.

Used to be the world was considered flat right?

Incidently I'm not discounting your "brains" theory as I'm very sure it plays it's part in this thing we're terming "nose power" I'm just not convinced it plays the WHOLE part yet as I've seen enough in extreme circumstances to make me question and wonder.


Now to your examples.

Consider the back-tracker. Dogs are at a check. Dog A takes the check out back-tracking -- tonguing like a mo-fo. The other 4 dogs ignore him and continue searching. Is this because they don't have as good a nose as dog A?

It's entirely possible. The dog that takes the check out back tracking may have such nose power that he has to work the track further to determine direction. It could be he has a combination of nose power and an inability to process the information properly and one could add to the scenario that the dog may also just like to bark, much like your brace example. Truth is any number of things could be going on in such an instance and I don't think with just what you written as an example you can discount any number of reasons for what the dog is doing.

So I have to go back to your scenario where your outcrossed female had some 5-minute spurts of "running" and the other 4 did not. I would challenge you that your 4 other dogs smelled exactly what she was smelling. She considered it a viable run and said so. The other 4 didn't agree.

I was wondering when you would jump in and commit with your thoughts on this. You're lack of experience in hunting in extreme conditions is impairing your judgement here. I on the other hand have plenty of experience in these conditions and although I can't say with ABSOLUTE certainty what was going on......I'm pretty sure. The bitch in question jumped the hare in each instance, she was not calling on old tracks which she had plenty of opportunity to do so as there was plenty of hare sign in the area. In these kind of conditions it is not uncommon at all for a "hot track" to go "cold" within seconds or minutes. She was working in deep dry powder snow up to her chin and what likely happened was she ran out of scent, literally, as she pursued the hare. Although I wasn't in position to see this example I have been in position to witness it plenty of times in the past.

The other dogs not agreeing could be due to any number of reasons but one certainly can't ingore or discount that one of those reasons is probably that they just lacked the nose power to work a track, even off a jump that day.
ANYONE who has run and hunted in extreme conditions like this has had this happen and I'm sure they can confirm similar experiences.

[mybeagles]

Good post Larry,

I have always liked a dog that barked on those feeder tracks 50 yards or so from where the hare is sitting. The other dogs flood into the area and the rabbit is almost alway jumped within a few minuntes. To find a babbling fool just watch the other dogs. When they wont hark into a dog, likely that dog is a fool. With the cold nosed gyp, I never had a situation where dogs would not come to her. Struggled to get scent yes, but not fail to go with her.

[Bev]

If we are going to start in about science don't you think it should be approached with an unbiased, objective, critical thought process. You respond simply with what you've been told without ever questioning and appear to be lacking the capacity for such an objective approach.

You certainly claim to know a lot about me. You know how I get my information, from where, that I don't have any experience. You assume a lot, and you twist other people's words a lot. It might not hurt you to do a little actual research to compliment your vast experience with dog noses. Exactly how many links to scientific studies, fact-based articles that describe scent receptors would you like?

You cannot dispute it -- it's documented science. Most long-snooted dogs of all breeds have 220 milion scent receptors. Their ability to smell is the same. They have different interests and training. Some of it is instinctive. But everything I read and seen tells me it begins with the brain's ability to process, and/or the dog's emotional capacity. Puppies do some really stupid things on the way to doghood. So math is math. Oops wait, I guess your dollar and my dollar isn't always the same is it? Different kind of math. But still, think about how many 200 million is. If dog A has 100,000 scent receptors that for some reason are defunct, do you honestly think that would make the difference in him being able to smell a rabbit track that was 20 minutes old as opposed to 10 minutes old? My guess is they have a few million redundant receptors. It's just a guess, nothing I've been told or witnessed.

I do believe that outside influences can certainly affect the efficiency of those scent receptors. Infected teeth or other illness can do that. It's quite possible that -35 degree air can do that. Everything under the sun has tolerances -- upper limits and lower limits. All things being equal, no infections, no damage, I believe (and read this carefully -- this is my opinion) based on everything I've seen and read (and I have owned a couple of hundred hunting beagles) a dog can have the best "nose" in the world, but if he doesn't have the brains and/or maturity to use it correctly, all is for naught.

You can't see how a good nose can be tied to the brain. I don't see how it cannot.

[Bev]

The nose is like eyes I gotta believe. We all have two eyes of differing ability to see either close or far, but it has nothing to due with how smart we are. It's about the way the eyes process information and relay that information to the brain.

Actually, Steve, there's a physiological reason for myopia (near-sightedness) and hyperopia (farsightedness) and either can be further complicated by astigmatism. In simple language, a misshapen eyeball is the cause. The eyeball is sending to the brain perfect information as it is receiving it. Fix the eyeball, the information changes. But I hear where your coming from.

Even still, vision is also linked to intelligence in it's everyday use -- just like the nose. It comes down to discrimination, and do I act upon what I see/smell or not? We both see a train coming. You might see it a little more clearly, but we both know it's a train. You choose to risk out-running it. I don't. I've made a conscious decision to wait. I believe intelligence and emotional maturity plays into how we use all of our natural senses.

Bev I saw where you wrote that if your dog Ozzie barks, the rabbit's up. Could it be that you mean if he barks, he has a line he can move?

That's exactly what I mean. The "rabbit's up" is a term I use to describe a rabbit that's been in the proximity recently as opposed to hours ago. I got it from all the people I've run dogs with over the years. *shrugs* In Ozzie's case. Do I think he has a better nose than most? Physiologically speaking, no. He has 220 million scent receptors, too. Do I think he's smart enough to recognize a little sooner when a track will produce game? Yes. I think he makes that decision quickly, where other dogs need a little more convincing. When we are talking about 50 - 100 yards between one dog opening and the others, I think we're dealing with conscious decision-making. Some say I give dogs too much credit. I say some don't give them enough. Dogs are capable of making judgment calls.

The dog that takes the check out back tracking may have such nose power that he has to work the track further to determine direction.

Would that be the kind of superior nose power that you would be seeking for your extreme running? I can't believe you said that, lol.

[Larry G]

Can't remember where right now, but I read that a long snouted dog has more scent receptors than a short snouted dog. And we all know that a Bloodhound is supposed to be the king of scent hounds, able to track a man days after he left a trail. So, could the Pug or English Bull do the same, if he only were a bit smarter, and set his mind to it?

[Bev]

Larry, we are trying to compare like dogs, not unlike dogs. Bloodhounds have approximately 300 million scent receptors. Fox terriers 150 million or so. Pugs and bulldogs, not even that, so why would we expect them to scent like a bloodhound? We aren't comparing pugs to beagles. We're comparing beagles to beagles, and they have the same equipment. I don't see where this is so hard to understand. Saying a smart pug can scent better than a dumb bloodhound is like Curly asking the block of ice, "Is it warmer in the summer than it is in the country?"

[2500 HD]

Are we still trying to figure out what "constitutes a bloodline" or who knows how fast a dog can think, if it can think, or when it thinks.

Interesting topic, but I hate to break to news to you all, You will never find perfection in a beagle because no one wants the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!

What I breed for you don't want, and what you want, I wouldn't feed. So, what constitutes a blood line?????????????????????????????

[Bev]

We did discuss that in the first pages. Do you have an opinion you'd like to share about what constitutes a bloodline? It wouldn't hurt my feelings to get back on track (no pun intended.)

[Larry G]

Funny I thought you wrote that all dogs had the same number. I ain't about to dig back just to make a point. It is a long and confusing thread.

Now, most of us know that people, say of a race, are basically alike. But some see, hear, and even smell (not talking BO here) much more keenly than others. So we say they have better eyes, ears and noses than others. Seems logical to me that dogs also have varying powers of these senses within a breed, especially the sense of smell which is the dog's most highly developed sense. I say we ask expert Mark Carder if he thinks there is a difference in Beagles' nose power. If he won't answer (might fear getting kicked off the board) then maybe we take a poll and over half of us get kicked off.

Heheheh somebody better tell Mark to change the title of his last post to "Brains, brains brains if you want to run Consistently".

[NorWester1]

You certainly claim to know a lot about me. You know how I get my information, from where, that I don't have any experience. You assume a lot, and you twist other people's words a lot. It might not hurt you to do a little actual research to compliment your vast experience with dog noses. Exactly how many links to scientific studies, fact-based articles that describe scent receptors would you like?

No, I don't assume to know anything about you. I can only come to any conclusion by what you post and how you post it.

Human beings have the same number of bones in the body. However there are a number of characteristics that vary from person to person making everyone's bones different. How can you be so sure that is not the case with scent receptors in the nose?

I'm asking for ANY scientific based facts and the source that will discount the hypothosis that I presented.

Would that be the kind of superior nose power that you would be seeking for your extreme running? I can't believe you said that, lol.

When dealing with ideal running conditions a hound with superior nose may take longer to sort out the scent. Mistakes are much more likely to made in such a scenario. It's an unfortunate by- product in developing the kind of nose power needed for extreme conditions. However when the running gets tough those unfortunate by- products do not manifest themselves. The scenting conditions are as such that the cold nosed hound that may be plagued with extra mouth, some backtracking etc, in good scenting now becomes your "honest" hound and perhaps the only one that can get the job done. Meanwhile the hounds that are your honest, only open when the track is blazing hot in an ideal scenting environment may reduced to being worthless in extreme conditions.

Bev with what you wrote and how little experience hunting or running in extreme conditions you have, it's obvious you don't know what your talking about. There is no logical reason to discuss the matter further.

I did enjoy the debate though.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

Hypothetically, let's say for the sake of arguement Norwester's theory on nose is correct and Bev's theory is wrong.
So what...so breed for nose if your environment requires extra nose power. The brace beaglers like to breed for walkie talkies or the guys who run in ARHA Big Pack breed for big strong hounds with speed, drive and endurance.
It doesn't make your dogs better than a dog that is bred for different traits or emphasis placed elsewhere.
Every year we get the posts about how great my snow dogs are and how inferior yours are because they cant run in minus 35 degree powder. Who cares!