Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[Pine Lakes]

Competition & talent level is why it's so hard to become a Mid-West FC. You might as well let go of your theory that the Mid-West hounds winning are faulty & undeserving; I've seen too much & know better.

Greg, you need to stop trying to carry a conversation with this guy, he's not posting for that purpose. Go look at his latest post and you'll get a better idea. He knows more than any trialer no matter the age, experience, success, or style, well because he says so. I had an urge to conduct myself differently, but didn't want to appear as an internet bully. I must say it was a great post with a lot of good views and opinions other than the one idiot. Thing is, he's not an idiot for his opinions but for his snide comments and overall lack of respect. If you stop responding to him, maybe he will go away and the rest of you can continue.

[gwyoung]

Pine lacks, I am glad you did not want to appear as an internet bully, that would have scared the hell out of me, and as far as your advice on not responding to what I post , it seems like you can't even take your own advice you have responded to my posts on both threads. But, hey that don't make you an idiot, no sir I am not saying that! But for one to willingly continue on with something that obviously makes them angry as you have done on both threads certainly doesn't make you a candidate for the smartest person in the world either! check your hat I am telling you believe it or not, too tight a fit will cause people to act like you do! might be a simple fix to your problem of anger, the next step is anger management.

[sbeagler]

Competition & talent level is why it's so hard to become a Mid-West FC. You might as well let go of your theory that the Mid-West hounds winning are faulty & undeserving; I've seen too much & know better.

Greg, you need to stop trying to carry a conversation with this guy, he's not posting for that purpose. Go look at his latest post and you'll get a better idea. He knows more than any trialer no matter the age, experience, success, or style, well because he says so. I had an urge to conduct myself differently, but didn't want to appear as an internet bully. I must say it was a great post with a lot of good views and opinions other than the one idiot. Thing is, he's not an idiot for his opinions but for his snide comments and overall lack of respect. If you stop responding to him, maybe he will go away and the rest of you can continue.

greg you are so very patient. by the way pine lakes is a nice guy he doesnt spend hours raining on others parade. the original topic was conformation not bashing midwest dogs. i pulled a pedigree on the shadrac dog you bragged on i saw brace dog greats like crooked tail sam and wind creek limbo. you have a lot nerve to bash and criticize . if you dont like our dogs go to the ukc arha espo board hopefully you can find happiness . best of luck with your hounds. steve

[sbeagler]

Competition & talent level is why it's so hard to become a Mid-West FC. You might as well let go of your theory that the Mid-West hounds winning are faulty & undeserving; I've seen too much & know better.

That's so very true. Not only does it take a talented hound, but a lot rabbit tracks being fed to them. It's a lot of work but very gratifying when you make it to the podium.

[gwyoung]

Steve, Best of luck to you learning how to make an intelligent post! why don't you look at your recent masterpiece and tell us just what in the hell you are saying and who you are saying it to? You are definitely saying that Greg was bragging about shadrack and bashing Midwest hounds I have to take up for him on that he did neither . Try to get your crap straight , actually your latest post ain't much different than the rest you have made, it is clear that with you confusion abounds. P.S. If you are extremely drunk we can understand why you say what you do! Look at your last masterpiece, what a joke ! oh, yeah, your Midwest hounds are the only ones worth a crap and now this board is yours, I liked the " Greg you are so very patient", comment, I thought you were going to have to go pet him, LOL.. and as far as being happy you won't find a more happy person on this board than me and I owe it all to people like you, Please reply. Best of luck with your hounds, G.W.

[sbeagler]

I can make an intelligent post, and i have respect for others. I graduated from NC State University in the top third of my class. I am an environmental health specialist working as a government agent 22 years. i also believe in being respectful to others. I have friends in the UBGF though we dont have the same hounds we still find common ground by being understanding and respectful something all people deserve to a point

[gwyoung]

Yes, I have nothing but respect for the intelligence of our government. What the hell was I thinking. I am also sure that you can make an intelligent post , you have failed at your last few attempts though. perhaps you should try again. Look at your next to last post and try to decipher it for me. I am use to reading absolute garbage and that one has me stumped. And what the hell does the UBGF have to do with anything ???

[Beagle Huntsman]

Seems we have gone from bragging about the conformation of the current Midwest hounds to a two person arguing match between a couple of guys who obviously like a different style of hound.

MyBeagles mentioned not allowing handlers to work the hounds or say anything. I can imagine the looks you got, because I also would give you one. When I hunt, I run a big pack of 14-18 hounds every time out. I walk through cover with them, and make enough noise (voice) to keep them all hunting and knowing where I am. I like them all to hunt within about 50 yards of me. If I did not move with them, they would stop and wait for me. If I did not let them know where I am, they would come find me. It’s just the way they are trained. I don’t carry a “tally-ho” stick, but I do carry a walking stick because I am old and over 20 years of judging trials has worn my knees down a little. My hounds jump 19 out of every 20 rabbits we start, so I am just giving direction and holding the pack together. They see me as their pack leader.

I hear about LPH trials were the hounds are taken into an enclosure and the handlers are made to wait outside. I am afraid most of my hounds would not like that arrangement, nor would I.

This is really off topic, but how do you run hare in an enclosure anyway!!?? I have gun hunted hare in WV, MI, and NY, and those animals will often run out of hearing, especially on a flat landscape. I don’t know how a (distance limiting) enclosure is considered anything but artificial, even at SPO trials were we have all the mowed paths, etc. I hate enclosures….

Mybeagles also mentioned he has judged MidWest and UBGF trials. I hope you have given one up in favor of the other. I was asked to judge a UBGF trial at Perry County, Ohio, sometime in the mid-90s. From a physical standpoint, it was the easiest trial I ever judged. We walked or trotted behind most packs, and I literally wanted to kick them into moving along. Fortunately, a couple of guys had heard who was judging and entered three or four Branko-bred hounds, and they took most of the places because they could actually move the rabbit with some energy. Needless to say, the UBGF never invited me back, which was just as well. I hear the UBGF hounds have increased in speed since. They needed to.

On the other hand, I remember my last trial judged at Great Miami in the Midwest. It was a licensed trial and Sam Fisher from PA and I judged the little females. They ran us to death because they would not stay in the check area at all. I remember we were having a run down along a wooded stream area in relatively heavy underbrush. The hounds checked, and Sam and I ran up, and within 30 seconds we could not see a single hound, but then one opened up way up the hill in the distance and we were off again. That kind of running is very hard on a judge. We had no idea if they were even on the same rabbit. This was very different from what we had in the Midwest 10 years before that, but that was before the hare hounds started to dominate, and before people had the idea that if fast is good then faster must be better.

A friend told me a well-known Midwest beagler had asked him why I never came to the MidWest trials anymore and my friend told him I did not like the rough running. The MidWest guy said to tell me they had “gotten rid of all that stuff”. According to what some are saying here, maybe they did.

Speaking of the number of trials to finish, one of the best hounds I ever judged was FC. Andy’s Clover Patches, owned by Larry Hunt from Michigan. The dog won everything in the Midwest. I judged him at Great Miami for a win, then he quickly won Jessamine County and Robeson County (NC), for 3 wins and a championship in 3 licensed trials. And these were trials with 60-80 entries, as I recall. Seems like the class I judged took two days and part of a third. Andy’s pedigree was similar to the Bramletts on his top side, and he was a big black and tan like they are.

How do you have a 2 hour pounding winners pack run on one rabbit? Maybe you did not mean that. If my hounds run a rabbit 90 minutes, I look for them to catch it soon. I don’t remember having any rabbit go two hours. Maybe the KY rabbits are stronger than our Ohio rabbits.

Bringing it back to conformation, I do hope the Midwest hounds are improving. I do not believe they will ever have the conformation we had in the 1980s because you do not have Larry Carter and John New breeding hounds for the Midwest now, but if enough people work together and selectively breed, it is conceivable progress could continue to be made there. I wish all the best.

I received my Hounds and Hunting this week and took a very critical look at the UBGF hounds in light of what we have been saying, and was not impressed overall. With no show blood, it is very difficult to make much progress toward better conformation because you fight the drag of the race on the field side. The UBGF hounds have no show blood for many years, although all beagles have show crosses if you go back far enough. Far, far back in most cases.

[WELLS WOODS]

Another good post BH; good points. Hounds cannot finish as quickly as they used to because for one reason as I've stated already, the competition is much stronger than in years past with numerous hounds capable of winning & many FC's continuing to run after they have finished. Another reason, with over twice the amount of clubs now than in the 90's in the Mid-West, entries are lower ; they range from 25 to 40 according to the class. So it takes more wins & places to obtain 120 points. Hounds in my opinion are getting a better look with lower entries & fewer hounds for judges to go through in the day; the big entries of the past look good on paper, but did all the hounds get a fair look when judges are overwhelmed with so many dogs to judge in such a small amount of time?
And yes, I meant to say 2 hour run on one rabbit; this is common if you get the right rabbit in the right area in the winners pack. Of course, I'm sure hounds could switch to a fresh rabbit without the handlers knowing it at times; they cover so much ground on the chase. A lot of rabbits do get caught.
As far as reckless style goes, there has been a more critical judging view put in place in the Mid-West. We still want speed, but very rough & faulty hounds don't stand a chance & I'm sure you know how hard it is to combine speed with accuracy & how good a hound must be to run this way consistently.
No disrespect, but it seems like there should be a format your hounds & others that don't trial could be running in. You guys say the UBGF is too slow & the Mid-West is too fast & reckless. Seems like if you wanted to improve our hounds you would still be involved in some way other than just being a critic. The Mid-West can always use knowledgeable houndsmen to take part.
P.S. I know a couple of "better beaglling" magazines than Hounds & Hunting.

[sbeagler]

"Speaking of the number of trials to finish, one of the best hounds I ever judged was FC. Andy’s Clover Patches, owned by Larry Hunt from Michigan. The dog won everything in the Midwest. I judged him at Great Miami for a win, then he quickly won Jessamine County and Robeson County (NC), for 3 wins and a championship in 3 licensed trials. And these were trials with 60-80 entries, as I recall. Seems like the class I judged took two days and part of a third. Andy’s pedigree was similar to the Bramletts on his top side, and he was a big black and tan like they are."


BEAGLE HUNTSMAN Andy Clovers Patches came to Robeson County and put on a show. That club is 30 minutes away from my home. That Andy dog left nothing great hook up could really drive a rabbit like 30 years later everyone still remembers that dog He was a great hound for sure. I wonder if he ever produced? Today Robeson County is more like a UBGF Club good bunch of guys though.

[WELLS WOODS]

I remember people talking about Clover Patches too; very famous hound & legendary. Legendary because of his ability in the field at the time. How many hounds today are dominating in the field enough to become legends? Not many, because in my opinion we have so many more hounds with a high caliber of talent that no one dog stands out to the degree that Patches & other great hounds did 25 years ago. Today, a great hound has to become a great reproducer also in order to stand apart from the rest. Not trying to knock the old greats; they raised the bar & without them we wouldn't be where we are today. There were a few hounds I can think of from years past that I still think would be nearly unbeatable, but I honestly believe any hound that can become a Mid-West FC today, could have finished during anytime in the history of the Mid-West.
As far as LPH trials go, I haven't had much experience with it. I still really don't like the idea of having 30 to 50 hounds on the ground at the same time. No way it could work on a cottontail that I could comprehend. But I do know several men that run & judge in these trials & somehow I truly believe they are rewarding the best line running hounds. I've seen some of these winning LPH hounds come & win in the Mid-West & look good doing it; surprisingly, close in the check with good line control. The top LPH bloodlines have also proven to produce top notch cottontail hounds. When the first large pack blood came to the Mid-West, it changed the Mid-West from an upper UBGF type hound to a faster, more aggressive, run to kill type hound. It took a few years for breeders to figure out how to get enough line control back with the new foot speed of hare hound breeding to run a cottontail properly. Good judging saved the Mid-West in my opinion by staying in tune with the AKC rulebook. The rulebook will never change & when an association tries to change the rulebook to fit their hounds, that's when they go wrong. We should try to shape our hounds to run as close as they can to it using common sense & never forgetting these are "hunting" dogs first.

[big mike 50]

Beagle huntsman I have little to say in this other than the large pack trials I have been to have been in 80 or 120 acre pens or larger and the running of the hare seems to be relatively natural for what it is. There is room for the hounds to take a hare out of hearing and back and it is outstanding to witness even outside the fence. The Nationals are being held right over the bridge here in Michigan this year I will be looking for you there.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Wells: Some of the original MidWest folks would be very upset if they heard you call their hounds "upper UBGF". We hated the UBGF hounds and their poke along way of following a rabbit. They didn't pursue, they followed rabbits. Modified brace blood, for the most part. Lots of Pearson Creek and Limbo. Actually, the Midwest hounds originally were aggressive, driving hounds, often on the edge of being too much so. The winners packs were amazing to watch, especially the big males. The clubhouses would empty to see them put on a show.

When the hare blood began to take over, it took the aggressiveness to an unacceptable level, and we started to have runs of short dashes followed by a check, repeated over and over, often to a lost rabbit. Gone were the long driving runs we had seen earlier. It was no surprise, since these were hounds bred to run a different animal, a big running hare instead of a twisty cottontail. I was there, trying to judge at this time, and not happy about what I was seeing, but I WAS seeing it first hand. The big males that used to be the stars of the show were now so bad it was disgusting. I have been very careful to steer clear of those bloodlines in my own breeding program. I am glad to hear you say it has been cleaned up, but the Midwest has been using basically the same bloodlines for about 25 years now, so any changes were not because different lines were introduced.

We had a little Association called the Appalachian Gundog Association from the mid-80s to the late 90s. It was made up of about five clubs, Jackson (OH), Wood County (WV), Ohio River (WV/OH), Southern WV (WV) and Northern WV (WV). Running there was more like the old Midwest for a few more years, but eventually the new Midwest influence changed the running style at those clubs as well. As that happened, I became less and less interested in trialing because I could stay home and have better running, so I felt like the trials were a waste of my time at that point. Now, 15 years later, I don't miss them a bit. To each his own, and if you enjoy them, then I am happy for you.

Mike: I have no interest in a hare trial. I would not like the hounds there, so it would not be worth the trip. They don't have the conformation or running style I am after these days, but everyone likes something a little different.

[Beagle Huntsman]

Regarding the two hour runs.... I was out at dawn this morning with a 15 hound pack. 8 males and 7 females. Running was excellent, up until it got too hot. They ran one big rabbit for 45 minutes all over a big weedy creek bottom and in and out of a pine plantation. I stood up on the hillside and listened to the Saturday morning concert. They didn't have a check of more than 5 seconds the whole time and they were driving hard. Finally they caught him. My big female Madcap brought me the head, but the pack got the rest. I have never had a 2 hour run on the same rabbit. I keep a watch clipped to my belt so I can see how long each run lasts. More than an hour and the rabbit needs to find a hole or bad things are likely to happen. At the end of the day, the pack gets a grade, and time of the runs plays into that.

[Chris Powers]

Beagle Huntsman I have really enjoyed reading all your post. At times the big males have been way too rough will agree. But I have been to serval trials in past few years where the judges have done there job and the big males putting on a show in the winners pack catching 3-5 rabbits before the trial is over almost running check free. I would hate to think 15 dogs couldn't catch a rabbit and run check free with that many hounds on the ground the game doesn't have a chance