How bad u wanna WIN

[warddog]

Why is it that folks don't understand that ANY registry that maintains the records for the dogs they certify, set the rules for what they are certifying. If YOU register your dog and participate in their registry's trials and or compititions you are agreeing to do so in accordance with THEIR rules as written, not youra as you interpret them. The judges are also agreeing to enforce those rules as written, period with no ifs, ands or buts. It's absolutely NO different than following the hunting rules of the state in which you are hunting as they all are different. The first and foremost rule that I see is the one in which your dog MUST meet, regardless of compitition or not and that is the breed standards. Minus the dog meeting that they are NOT even of such, that the specific registry would register them in the first place. That then promotes the never ending debate of the 15" rule and is one that nearly EVERY registry uses as a height limit in their breed standards. Many question the process of the height rule and deny that they should be stacked as in a bench show. Then folks go off on the "unwritten" rule(s) and use their interpretation of the rule(s) or law of the registry. In my 30 years of enforcing The Code of Federal Regulations I can tell you that I learned long ago that if you don't have it in black and white, you don't have it so there is nothing that will stand up to the scrutiny of a third unbiased party when one of these unwritten rules is questioned. As for the measuring process, I often wonder why nearly every registry uses one process when being judged on the bench i.e. stacked with feet directly under their shoulders, legs straight and head up but yet folks think this is NOT the intent of the measuring posture for trialing rules. Seems to me as I read the trial measuring process it is nearly identical to the process used when being judged solely on breed standards on the bench! Makes absolutely no sense to me why stacking a dog to judge for the breed standards would NOT be the same process when doing so when meeting the requirements to trial. If you would be scratched on the bench when stacked then you should be measured against that same breed standard process when in a trial.

[Lee Cockman]

Most guys that reply on here do not even trial in any format. Almost 80% of the guys that have replied to this topic. The sad thing is a lot of people do not want to even give it a shot due to topics like this. Or a guy that is passionate of our sport say to much and get in trouble lock it let it go. It is hurting us all the guys that trial and the ARHA.

[Pyzon24]

Bev, i think it`s time to delet this thread. it`s not getting any better.

I agree. I bet my bottom dollar if it was an AKC bash. It would have been over along time ago.
No offense

[begles]

we are not part of 80%, i just shut down my pup. just turned 10 mon. just hit 15 1/2 inches. he is for sale, cant trial him.
if they can`t do both they don`t stay here.

[S.R.Patch]

Why is it that folks don't understand that ANY registry that maintains the records for the dogs they certify, set the rules for what they are certifying. If YOU register your dog and participate in their registry's trials and or compititions you are agreeing to do so in accordance with THEIR rules as written, not youra as you interpret them. The judges are also agreeing to enforce those rules as written, period with no ifs, ands or buts. It's absolutely NO different than following the hunting rules of the state in which you are hunting as they all are different. The first and foremost rule that I see is the one in which your dog MUST meet, regardless of compitition or not and that is the breed standards. Minus the dog meeting that they are NOT even of such, that the specific registry would register them in the first place. That then promotes the never ending debate of the 15" rule and is one that nearly EVERY registry uses as a height limit in their breed standards. Many question the process of the height rule and deny that they should be stacked as in a bench show. Then folks go off on the "unwritten" rule(s) and use their interpretation of the rule(s) or law of the registry. In my 30 years of enforcing The Code of Federal Regulations I can tell you that I learned long ago that if you don't have it in black and white, you don't have it so there is nothing that will stand up to the scrutiny of a third unbiased party when one of these unwritten rules is questioned. As for the measuring process, I often wonder why nearly every registry uses one process when being judged on the bench i.e. stacked with feet directly under their shoulders, legs straight and head up but yet folks think this is NOT the intent of the measuring posture for trialing rules. Seems to me as I read the trial measuring process it is nearly identical to the process used when being judged solely on breed standards on the bench! Makes absolutely no sense to me why stacking a dog to judge for the breed standards would NOT be the same process when doing so when meeting the requirements to trial. If you would be scratched on the bench when stacked then you should be measured against that same breed standard process when in a trial.

Ken, my only problem with what you've said is the manner of stacking the hound when on the bench vrs. under the stick. The bench pose their hounds like a "picture", not a "natural stance" like the measuring rules state. When you lift the head, you load the shoulders increasing the height by added mass. If we want the true height of the withers for the height measurement, then the added bulk of muscle and skin from lifting the head should not interfere.
The head level or slightly above the shoulders... jmho
Imho, we need to get all the people giving seminars on measuring, together at a SEMINAR to make sure everyone is on the same page.
AKC takes your money at puppy age to register your hounds. If it were so important a size & quality issue, they would allow you to register your hounds at 2 yr old...jmho ...but then, they wouldn't get the money from the too-big/too-small/no-hunt failures in the field

[warddog]

I believe that when you lift the head the shoulders naturally drop and if you lower the head the shoulders rise with all other things being kept the same as the feet and legs being kept straight and directly under them. This could be illustrated by getting down on your hands and knees then lifting your head up then lower it towards the floor and see what happens to your shoulders. I've shown several coon hounds in my day and some that I showed I had little to do with as far as them standing in a position that was natural for how their body was made. YES, their are tricks to the trade, so-to-speak on popping them up or "posing" them to look pretty BUT they do not have to be taken from their natural porportions. FACTS are that a dog with it's head down isn't in a natural stance either and I worked more on getting them to stand "up" on the toes cat footed with their front legs directly under their shoulders AND in getting them to tighten up in their chest in lieu of slouching down. Minus any clear definition of what is meant by standing in a "natural position with their legs directly under them there will always be confusion. IMO posing one on the bench does NOT necessarily take one from it's natural position any more than one in a hunting position takes it the oppisite way, as there is just so much leg and shoulder height/mass that the dog is born with for the dog to use. I think there are guys with more show experiance than I who could elaborate but in watching the big shows such as Westminister one always sees them making the dogs raise their head when standing and if their are heigth limits which we all know there is for all breed standards then it is my believe that what is used to determine meeting breed standards for one should be the same for the other as the breed standard MUST be met to even qualify to show or hunt in a registry. Without the breed standard being met nothing else could be earned as they wouldn't even meet what was required for the registry to even recognize them.

[toldyouso]

Listen I will say it again FRED you have been on here reading this post and you r the CHAIRMAN. it is a easy fix so why not FIX IT> Either make your officail measurement card OFFICIAL or place a rule in your format that takes the stick out of the handlers hands. Your organization YOUR organization is the only one with this PROBLEM so man up and FIX it. Why should Jim Preston get all the heat and why should anybody be banned in the heat of the moment when this problem would not even be a problem if you just FIX IT. Your rule is not even a rule if i am alright with a 15 in a half inch dog and Jim isnt how is that a enforcable rule. So FIX IT CHAIRMAN.

[S.R.Patch]

I believe that when you lift the head the shoulders naturally drop and if you lower the head the shoulders rise with all other things being kept the same as the feet and legs being kept straight and directly under them. This could be illustrated by getting down on your hands and knees then lifting your head up then lower it towards the floor and see what happens to your shoulders. I've shown several coon hounds in my day and some that I showed I had little to do with as far as them standing in a position that was natural for how their body was made. YES, their are tricks to the trade, so-to-speak on popping them up or "posing" them to look pretty BUT they do not have to be taken from their natural porportions. FACTS are that a dog with it's head down isn't in a natural stance either and I worked more on getting them to stand "up" on the toes cat footed with their front legs directly under their shoulders AND in getting them to tighten up in their chest in lieu of slouching down. Minus any clear definition of what is meant by standing in a "natural position with their legs directly under them there will always be confusion. IMO posing one on the bench does NOT necessarily take one from it's natural position any more than one in a hunting position takes it the oppisite way, as there is just so much leg and shoulder height/mass that the dog is born with for the dog to use. I think there are guys with more show experiance than I who could elaborate but in watching the big shows such as Westminister one always sees them making the dogs raise their head when standing and if their are heigth limits which we all know there is for all breed standards then it is my believe that what is used to determine meeting breed standards for one should be the same for the other as the breed standard MUST be met to even qualify to show or hunt in a registry. Without the breed standard being met nothing else could be earned as they wouldn't even meet what was required for the registry to even recognize them.

I tried your suggestion of getting down on all fours and having my wife measure me with my head level and then, with my head up but she wouldn't do it! All she wanted to do was feed me dog food to teach me to sit up and beg....
Gee, thanks Ken... now see what you've started...

[warddog]

Better be careful Patch as I used to get into more than I could handle doing that myself! I'm an ole dog now and the gettin down still ain't so bad but it the getin up that takes some time.

[HatterasBob]

OK this post should really get things rolling! I am an outsider to trialing because my dogs are way too tall. However I run with a lot of guys who do trial and guess what, there are only a few days all year when my big dogs can out run these so called small trial dogs. And this is in deep snow. I don't know how long this 15" breed standard has been around but don't you think that with all this "big dog" stuff going on it's time to let any pure bred beagle run? It sure would save a lot of oversize dogs that are good hounds. Just like humans dogs are getting bigger. And it would have saved a lot of pages in this thread!!
Bob

WEll this is wrong headed. If we let all hounds run then beagles will look like coon hounds in a few years. 15" stubs atre much more valuable than 13" stubs. Why? Are 15" hounds more desirable? NO. Often in AKC trials, little females have the largest classes. If you breed a full 15" stud to a full 15" bitch what do you get? Full 17" hounds. If people would start playing by the rules then there would be a greater demand for 13" studs.. I run 13" females. I got most of them by breeding a 12" male to 14 1/2" female. Yea I needed to help him with a brick to mount her. If you run an oversized hound you should expect to be sent to the truck and be happy when you don't, otherwise just tear up the rulebook and "Boys have at it".

Looking at the title of the thread again. I think the OP was upset that someone got DQed for being oversized and thought it was chicken, right. Well why do you have to run an oversized dog to win. How bad do you want to win? So bad you gotta cheat? Field trialing is about the betterment of the breed. Well how is running a 16" hound bettering the breed, no body can breed to him without going over? There's NO bettering the breed here, it just personal satisfaction of winning. Hurrah for the guy that sent him to the truck. If more did it then less oversized hounds would be showing up at trials.

KEEP THE STANDARD AT 15"!

[Hwy 30 kennels]

Let the big dogs run!! Their beagles should not fault a dog because its a little big.Dogs can only run track so fast. If that worried about size make two size class.

[toldyouso]

Listen i will put my beagle dogs against any coon dog on a rabbit. R u kidding me a coon hound will never run a rabbit as fast or as well as a beagle. That doesnt even make sense. Come on guys its not rocket science or is it .

[Casey Harner]

If you look at the dog's pedigrees it will determine the size most of the time in my honest opinion. If you breed two 15 inch dogs, you won't automatically get 17 inch dogs, you might get a mix bag of 13's to 15's. I always want to know the sizes of their grand parents and great grand parents.

[Little Indian Creek]

Toldyouso, is your new format going to have a size limit ?

[Bad Luck Kennels]

Looking at the title of the thread again. I think the OP was upset that someone got DQed for being oversized and thought it was chicken, right. Well why do you have to run an oversized dog to win. How bad do you want to win? So bad you gotta cheat? Field trialing is about the betterment of the breed. Well how is running a 16" hound bettering the breed, no body can breed to him without going over? There's NO bettering the breed here, it just personal satisfaction of winning. Hurrah for the guy that sent him to the truck. If more did it then less oversized hounds would be showing up at trials.

KEEP THE STANDARD AT 15"!

[/quote]


You really need to read all the post before you post. There was no dog that was DQed. The dog measured in. Not out.