COLDTRAILIN
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Blackdirt Beagles: Don't get your hackles up. We were posting at the same time and upon completion of my post I saw yours above. We are not knocking your hounds by pointing up a fault that some of them may have. Heck the next thread may contain a fault that my hounds have but I'll tell you it's afault anyway.
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blackdirt beagles
no joe- the act of cold trailing is attempting to produce a rabbit. its not a fault, it dont mean your dog is dumb or has a lesser nose. actually it means quite the opposite.
you ask if my cold trailers ever warm up a race... yes they do most of the time as i stated a few posts back. thats why its not a fault. because they are producing and accounting for their game.
you say arha left out important hound actions in their rules. important to who? you?
dont take this wrong joe, but beagling isnt all about you or what you consider a correct dog. have any of the formats asked your opinions on their standards and what they need to change? nope, i didnt think so.
so i guess that example of an arha trial is correct since you cant say where it isnt.
well sorry to cut it short, but my brother in law called to go hunting. this will be my 4th day in the field out of 5. how bout you? i''l check back late tonite.
you ask if my cold trailers ever warm up a race... yes they do most of the time as i stated a few posts back. thats why its not a fault. because they are producing and accounting for their game.
you say arha left out important hound actions in their rules. important to who? you?
dont take this wrong joe, but beagling isnt all about you or what you consider a correct dog. have any of the formats asked your opinions on their standards and what they need to change? nope, i didnt think so. so i guess that example of an arha trial is correct since you cant say where it isnt.
well sorry to cut it short, but my brother in law called to go hunting. this will be my 4th day in the field out of 5. how bout you? i''l check back late tonite.
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Boxer
black dirt beagles: Yes your hounds do warm their rabbit up and it is at that point that you KNOW they have produced their game BUT they have yet to account for it. We won't know if the game is accounted for until the completion of the chase.
ON the ARHA rules. How many points are awarded for pursuing ability? Accuracy in trailing? UNder the ARHA rules two hounds could run and one can pursue his game for thirty minutes without a check and run him to a hole and gain no points. Another hound can run his rabbit for thirty minutes and check every three feet and run up an incredible score and run him to a hole. Both have accounted for their game but which is the better hound? UNder ARHA rules the high score wins. Is that important? You bet it is because the hound who constantly checks will, over time, lose more rabbits then the hound who never checks.
Beagling is all about accomplishment.
ON the ARHA rules. How many points are awarded for pursuing ability? Accuracy in trailing? UNder the ARHA rules two hounds could run and one can pursue his game for thirty minutes without a check and run him to a hole and gain no points. Another hound can run his rabbit for thirty minutes and check every three feet and run up an incredible score and run him to a hole. Both have accounted for their game but which is the better hound? UNder ARHA rules the high score wins. Is that important? You bet it is because the hound who constantly checks will, over time, lose more rabbits then the hound who never checks.
Beagling is all about accomplishment.
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blackdirt beagles
actually joe, the doh with the solid run would have strike points and possibly jump points also. and you have to be at a loss for 15 seconds or more, so if your dog goes 3 foot in 15 seconds, all i can say is good luck 
.
dogs will minused if their "pursuing ability" is rough: ie pulling dogs out of a check, babbling, traveling too far on the check, etc. akc leaves it all to the judges opinion. arha has set rules and points.
. dogs will minused if their "pursuing ability" is rough: ie pulling dogs out of a check, babbling, traveling too far on the check, etc. akc leaves it all to the judges opinion. arha has set rules and points.
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Stony Branch Kennels
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blackdirt beagles
2 to 4 minutes would be average i guess. or 50 to 60 yards if i had to make an average guess. for me, i personally want a dog that has the ability and nose to do this. whats your thoughts, since we got about the same terrain. i want one that can cold trail on the bad days when you dont get a hot one up right away.
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Aaron Bartlett
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1191
- Joined: Sat Oct 19, 2002 9:26 pm
- Location: West Central Illinois
Are you talking about cold trailing ONLY on days when tracking is terrible and rabbits arent moving at all or are you talking about on any given day even if another dog can run good? First of all if it takes a dog 4 minutes to run a track 60 yards, I dont think I would want it.
In ARHA, if it takes a dog more than 4 minutes to produce a rabbit you get minused.
I dont mind if a dog barks a little before the rabbit is up and running if the tracking is super bad but it better not do it for very long.
I cant stand a dog that blows holes in the ground especially on days when other dogs can run. I tend to understand a little on days when its bad but I still dont like it. As far as im concerned if it takes a dog 4 minutes to produce a rabbit it should of kept its mouth shut a while longer.
If you can stand more of it than I can then feed it! If we all liked the same kind of dogs it would be pretty hard to sell something you didnt like.
In ARHA, if it takes a dog more than 4 minutes to produce a rabbit you get minused.
I dont mind if a dog barks a little before the rabbit is up and running if the tracking is super bad but it better not do it for very long.
I cant stand a dog that blows holes in the ground especially on days when other dogs can run. I tend to understand a little on days when its bad but I still dont like it. As far as im concerned if it takes a dog 4 minutes to produce a rabbit it should of kept its mouth shut a while longer.
If you can stand more of it than I can then feed it! If we all liked the same kind of dogs it would be pretty hard to sell something you didnt like.
Crane Creek Kennels
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boxer
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blackdirt beagles
aaron- im talking on the real bad days when for whatever reason a hot one doesnt seem available. i wouldnt keep a dog that goes 60 yards in 4 minutes either, unless it was picking a cold track and leading to a jump, then i wouldnt sell it for any price.
boxer- i dont run hare, but bring what your used to and i'll show you what im used to.
guess what im gettin at is time to quit runnin mouths and start runnin dogs:
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/untitled1.html
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/misc.html
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/miscpic2.html
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/miscpic.html
boxer- i dont run hare, but bring what your used to and i'll show you what im used to.
guess what im gettin at is time to quit runnin mouths and start runnin dogs:
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/untitled1.html
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/misc.html
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/miscpic2.html
http://blackdirtbeagles.homestead.com/miscpic.html
I think Steve could teach all of us a thing or two about beagles (well, maybe not Boxer). I almost agree with Joe on this one (never thought I would write that). I think what he is trying to say is that the perfect hound would go out there and find a hot track every time out and run it without a loss until it is either caught, shot or holed. We all know there are no perfect hounds, they all have faults. Where the difference between us shows up is in what faults we are willing to put up with and what faults we can't live with.
black dirt beagles: You gave me faulty hound actions but you failed to say how many points were gained by the hound who never checked the entire chase for his ability to control the line. The other hound gains points each time HE causes a check and then finds the check he caused but I have yet to hear how many points the hound who never checks earns for his ability. How far does the arha say is too far on a check? Is the distance the same no matter the conditions? Should a hound anchor instead of reaching only when necissary according to the existing conditions in order to regain the line? If the hound must anchor is he minused for looseing his game? If so then he is minused if he reaches and then again he is minused if he anchors. What should the hound do?
in regards to rough hounds. In the arha how many points are minused for over runnung? swinging? or leaving gaps in the line?
in regards to rough hounds. In the arha how many points are minused for over runnung? swinging? or leaving gaps in the line?
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WELLS WOODS
- Posts: 1601
- Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:54 pm
- Location: Annville, Kentucky
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COLD TRAILING
I'm sure you fellows have some very fine gundogs or you wouldn't be feeding them. We all seem to agree for the most part on how a gundog should perform. The AKC brace beagles of today are a disgrace to the breed, but that's another subject.
About cold trailing; If dogs are producing a rabbit consistently after trailing only two minutes, that rabbit has probably been stirring recently and these dogs know the scent is fairly fresh and will likely be able to produce it. I wouldn't even really call this coldtrailing, although I still prefer a hound to solve this puzzle silently until the rabbit is actually jumped so not to interfere with other hounds that are hunting and might be close to a jump also.
The coldtrailing that I find unacceptable is barking on very old scent from the night before. Very rarely does this hound produce a rabbit barking on these old tracks. The rabbit has stirred all over the place, back and forth feeding, and scent is everywhere. Most dogs can smell these old tracks, but the good dogs know that this is old scent and will work the old trails silently that lead into the thick cover where a rabbit might be laid up.
Some dogs can determine the age of scent better than others. How much a dog barks around on old scent is a good indication of how much intelligence he has, not how much nose he has.
There are more important things to a hound than whether he has an extra bark or two, though. A complete gundog must have unlimited desire and an above average amount of nose and brains. When you get a hound with all these qualities, then you hope he can handle the pressure of running with hounds as good as or better than he is on a regular basis without doing things he wouldn't normally do. It's good that a hound have competitive spirit and want to outdo his packmates, but he should be more concerned about running his game. I've seen hounds that by themselves were the total package, but put a little pressure on them and they would learn some way to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over his packmates. This could be in the form of running mute, skirting the brush, leaving the check area too soon in a gambling fashion, etc. Then we are again faced with the question of how much of a fault is too much. Most AKC judges in the Mid- West know hounds aren't perfect and as long as the dog is making a positive contribution to the hunt, they aren't too critical,but when a dog's faults are continually interfering with the steady progress of the pack, they must be eliminated.
I keep refering to AKC Mid - West because thats what I'm familiar with and I'm proud of our efforts to improve the quality of beagle gundogs. I haven't ever been to an ARHA or UKC trial, but I'm sure they run some very fine dogs and are doing thier best to promote a good gundog.
About cold trailing; If dogs are producing a rabbit consistently after trailing only two minutes, that rabbit has probably been stirring recently and these dogs know the scent is fairly fresh and will likely be able to produce it. I wouldn't even really call this coldtrailing, although I still prefer a hound to solve this puzzle silently until the rabbit is actually jumped so not to interfere with other hounds that are hunting and might be close to a jump also.
The coldtrailing that I find unacceptable is barking on very old scent from the night before. Very rarely does this hound produce a rabbit barking on these old tracks. The rabbit has stirred all over the place, back and forth feeding, and scent is everywhere. Most dogs can smell these old tracks, but the good dogs know that this is old scent and will work the old trails silently that lead into the thick cover where a rabbit might be laid up.
Some dogs can determine the age of scent better than others. How much a dog barks around on old scent is a good indication of how much intelligence he has, not how much nose he has.
There are more important things to a hound than whether he has an extra bark or two, though. A complete gundog must have unlimited desire and an above average amount of nose and brains. When you get a hound with all these qualities, then you hope he can handle the pressure of running with hounds as good as or better than he is on a regular basis without doing things he wouldn't normally do. It's good that a hound have competitive spirit and want to outdo his packmates, but he should be more concerned about running his game. I've seen hounds that by themselves were the total package, but put a little pressure on them and they would learn some way to cheat and gain an unfair advantage over his packmates. This could be in the form of running mute, skirting the brush, leaving the check area too soon in a gambling fashion, etc. Then we are again faced with the question of how much of a fault is too much. Most AKC judges in the Mid- West know hounds aren't perfect and as long as the dog is making a positive contribution to the hunt, they aren't too critical,but when a dog's faults are continually interfering with the steady progress of the pack, they must be eliminated.
I keep refering to AKC Mid - West because thats what I'm familiar with and I'm proud of our efforts to improve the quality of beagle gundogs. I haven't ever been to an ARHA or UKC trial, but I'm sure they run some very fine dogs and are doing thier best to promote a good gundog.
Last edited by WELLS WOODS on Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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blackdirt beagles
