Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[Chris Hornick]

Once again Tim... excellent post. Thank you

[Little Hawk]

Great post Beagle Huntsman

[JUDE]

I'm not jumping in to argue but just wanted to say i third or whatever that was a very good post by huntsman! Something else I would like to say about Mr.Moore's post where he described some of the faults he had ran into while trying to build the perfect beagle . Those same exact faults that he found in the show blood will also be found in some of the hunting lines we see today! If everyone cared enough to want the very best for our wonderful lil hounds how much better would the breed be? Moore those are some fine looking beagles! keep up the great work!

[Moore Beagles]

Tim
I always enjoy your posts. Thanks for the Compliment Jude...
My Brother Paul and I have always had Beagles our whole life and have been rabbit Hunters and only recently Started competing In Trials and shows when other Breeders encouraged us too. We didn't want to be Kennel Blind. We breed to suit ourselves but We believe we will better the Breed in some way as a result.



After seeing the early Desire and Jumping ability that this Show Female had We knew We were on to something Special. Were now on our 3rd Generation with the same Traits being Thrown in this bloodline. They can run all day with minimum Training.






On this Video Clip On this day She was running with 2 of our well bred Field dogs and at mile 22.5 She had lost Her help.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=76 ... 1217940627

As for the Tail, this Showline's tail never bleeds due to the proper tail Set, and extra Flag in the Tail. our field Dogs tails start bleeding about 2 hours on the ground.

[WELLS WOODS]

Nice post Beagle Huntsman. Good info.
You mentioned that you judged some Mid-West trials in the 80's & 90's. Do you remember some of the dog's names that won or placed under you? Thanks.

[S.R.Patch]

Don't know how to size these things(pics) but look at the length of neck, depth of chest and good shoulder placement. The olfactories in the nose need length not crowding by a stubbed off muzzle. Looks like a hound and not a toy for the couch.

[gwyoung]

beaglehuntsman, good post, INTELLIGENT! Wheras, I did not read and try to take in every line, I tend to skip through at times. One of the several things that grabbed my attention and that is when you spoke of the" could not walk across the room comment". That was a sarcastic comment made by me and I believe just the exact opposite! Once again though it took you some time I believe you will be well received on the knowledgeable comments in your post! Does my experience agree with yours on every point, No, but if any two people are exactly alike than one of them would not be necessary, Good post!

[Hare Chaser]

Beagle Hunsman,

I'll join the choir in saying a big thanks for taking the time to compose a well thought out post. It suggests you are a man who is a true houndsman that is intentional and contemplative in assessing what makes up a complete rabbit/hare hound.

[Hare Chaser]

Beagle Hunsman,

I'll join the choir in saying a big thanks for taking the time to compose a well thought out post. It suggests you are a man who is a true houndsman that is intentional and contemplative in assessing what makes up a complete rabbit/hare hound.

[WELLS WOODS]

One point Beaglehuntsman hit on with S.R. Patch & Pine Lakes too, whether the Mid-West or Show bred dogs have the best conformation isn't the most important issue, it's what's been bred in our hounds' MIND for the last 50 years that matters the most. Most show bred hounds would have a tough time placing in a Mid-West trial; not beacause of their foot speed, but because the majority just aren't "good" enough. They haven't been bred for their hunting skills through the years.
It wasn't just show breeders that neglected to breed with the hunter in mind. Look what breeders did with brace trial beagles & other hounds bred to "follow" the trail with "style" instead of breeding a hound with the desire to overtake it's game. Men have even bred for poor conformation to make a hound slower of foot & have actually twisted the interpretation of the AKC rulebook to fit this type of hound thus viewing some good qualities as faults & have ended up with AKC FC's that are a very poor example of a hunting dog.
The Mid-West & large pack hounds have bloodlines that have been bred with the right "mind set" for a long time, focused on the many variables a hound needs to be a great hunting dog. Not saying every dog is good quality in ability or conformation, but these bloodlines were developed by hunters that used their dogs to put food on the table. When we set up a legitimate field trial system to evaluate these dogs properly using the AKC rulebook as a guide, that's when we saw the "best true gundogs" being recognized in the AKC field trial world. As conformation improves in the Mid-West along with ability, we are seeing a better all around gundog becoming AKC FC's. Not the prettiest "pet" or the best "medium speed" dog, the best "rabbit dog". The best hunting dogs should be "fast", "medium" & "slow" at times that run with strong desire & know how to adjust to different scenting conditions caused by weather or terrain.
There are a lot of good dogs out there that will never see a field trial that are being used for what they were bred for, hunting. There are, however, a lot of good dogs being trialed in the Mid-West, & it's our job to reward the best accordingly.
Another issue BH talked about was "hunt" in our field trial dogs. This is an area to be concerned about because it's more exciting to see a hound's ability during the chase after the rabbit has been jumped & on the move and we may tend to neglect to evaluate their search properly. Most Mid-West judges are hunters & know how important hunt is, but it can't be stressed enough. Judges need to realize that the first few minutes is a crucial time to be judging them on hunt before a rabbit is jumped & if a dog shows no desire to hunt, it needs to be eliminated. Another good time to judge hunt is between rabbits; you will see your best gundogs hunting, not standing & waiting for another hound to do the work or for someone to yell "tally-ho". A dog's hunt should be a major factor when deciding our winners or we could lose hunt in the hounds we are breeding.

[mybeagles]

Greg,

It's hard to evaluate the hounds on hunt when the handlers immediately start climbing through the brush to jump a rabbit the second the hounds are released. Every handler starts hollering and screaming for the dogs to hunt in an unnatural manner.

When I see this trial after trial I really question if any of them actually hunt. I hunt pretty hard every winter rain or shine and even in the worst weather I don't go through all the foolishness I witness at trials with handlers trying to jump a rabbit.

The last couple Midwest trials I judged I made all the handlers stay together and would not allow them to get in the brush. Several looked at me like I was the devil and I heard lots of rumblings. This leads me to believe that most trials they are allowed to jump rabbits for their dogs and continually motivate them to hunt.

What I discovered is, there are dogs that will hunt without all this handler interference and there are some that won't. This allows me as a judge to eliminate dogs that need a circus to cover up the fact they won't hunt.

UBGF trials are even worse in this regards. Handles all climb through the brush in a desperate attempt to jump game for their dogs and everyone needs a tally-ho stick. The last one I judged I looked up to discover all the handlers out in front of the dogs working a grass field. We need to fix that or all the rhetoric about hunting dogs first is going to be a myth.

We could take a page from the ARHA Progressive Pack guys who are not allowed to work or call their dogs once they are released. Dogs that won't hunt are exposed very quickly.

I think overall AKC SPO is the best overall format but I think we have some changes to make in the way we evaluate hunt or we will be on a slippery spiral in the wrong direction.

[randy hicks]

search and hunt this is a characteristic that was almost breed out of some beagle strains. for the hunter, it is half a hound. search is closely tired with desire you may have a hound that does a wonderful job running a rabbit once the game is up but its not able to find its own game. such a hound is suspect and from a hunters standpoint half a hound. if you actually training hounds make sure you are keeping just that,hunters.I understand the trials there is only so much time in a day so many hounds to look at handlers do help the hounds to push past this time problem. I personally watch my hounds get confused by this at first,handle the hounds tally ho, because they hunt for me and in a trial its a push to get the packs threw the day.

[Casey Harner]

I personally don't like to talk to my hounds to hunt or to hunt harder. If I need to do that I need better hounds...

[gwyoung]

wells woods, Earlier on in this thread, I spoke to the fact that what a show hound is missing is not conformation. It's seems now that as some others have since mentioned it some are starting to agree. I am glad that we can now agree that what show hounds lack is not conformation. See how things eventually work out! Anyhow, water under the bridge , I always like how these threads twist and turn into other subjects ( some don't) It seems to have gotten away from conformation and headed toward hunt, anyone wants to say most show beagles won't hunt , will not get any dis-agreement from me, LOL. I agree with casey to a large point as to what he is saying, but a little encouragement to mine at times doesn't hurt! What I don't like as far as talking to hounds,and I quit running with a fellow over this, ( we are still friends but I won't hunt with him ) as soon as his hounds have a check or in his case about to have a check, and if he happens to see where the rabbit went he runs to where he last saw it and calls them to that spot, drives me crazy as of course my hounds are now not doing their work either. he always recognizes a tough spot such as bare ground or gravel and he knows his dogs are going to have trouble so he calls them, I tell him they will have trouble all of their lives and he is the cause of that! He doesn't realize the harm that man in his eagerness to help can cause in a lot of situations!

[Casey Harner]

wells woods, Earlier on in this thread, I spoke to the fact that what a show hound is missing is not conformation. It's seems now that as some others have since mentioned it some are starting to agree. I am glad that we can now agree that what show hounds lack is not conformation. See how things eventually work out! Anyhow, water under the bridge , I always like how these threads twist and turn into other subjects ( some don't) It seems to have gotten away from conformation and headed toward hunt, anyone wants to say most show beagles won't hunt , will not get any dis-agreement from me, LOL. I agree with casey to a large point as to what he is saying, but a little encouragement to mine at times doesn't hurt! What I don't like and I quit running with a fellow over this, ( we are still friends but I won't hunt with him ) as soon as his hounds have or in his case about to have one and if he happens to see where the rabbit went he runs to where he lasts saw it and calls them to that spot, drives me crazy as of course my hounds are now not doing their work either. he always recognizes a tough spot such as bare ground or gravel and he knows his dogs are going to have trouble so he calls them, I tell him they will have trouble all of their lives and he is the cause of that!

Only time you will see me talk to my hounds are young dogs trying to get the hang of jumping their own rabbits. I don't normally use starting pens, I like hands on experiences with my hounds and love to start them in the wild only.... I believe that when a hound is in trials they are old enough and got enough experience to jump their own rabbit, that I need to keep my mouth shut and allow them to do their thing. I've noticed in the past that the more I do, the less my hounds accomplish....