COLDTRAILIN

Little Dog · Post by **Little Dog** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:12 pm

Maybe we should call em,

HOT MOUTHED &
COLD MOUTHED

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:18 am

Guys , I've had beagles most of my life. My first ones were a pack of grade beagles my dad traded a coon hound for. I loved taking those dogs out hunting and didn't care what they did as long as they would handle and didn't run deer. I soon learned though, that all beagles weren't created equal. I had one that wanted to bark immediately upon turning him loose; one that would coldtrail just like he had a hot rabbit, but very seldom did he; one that wouldn't bark unless he was ten feet from the rabbit; I had one though that most of the time ignored the others, hunted hard and when she opened , 99 percent of the time she had a rabbit. She would outrun the rest of them on the chase , get most of the checks and come back to me if the rabbit holed. So basically, I had one good dog and she taught me a lot. She had one trait that the others didn't have, brains.
My first registered beagle was a little male that my mom bought me after she accidentally ran over a good young grade pup of mine. It came from a popular bloodline and could run the hide off of a rabbit, but if you took him out in the early morning, he would coldtrail all over the place. Sometimes he would eventually trail one up and jump it, but I found myself most of the time trying to jump a rabbit myself while he coldtrailed. One morning while hunting with my uncle and a couple new dogs he had bought with some canadian bloodlines, my two dogs ran for thirty minutes and his never would open. I thought for a while my dogs were putting it on his, but there was only one problem, we never did see a rabbit. Finally after realizing my dogs were coldtrailing worse than I'd ever seen them, I shamefully put my two back in the box and we hunted with his two for the rest of the day. To my surprise, these dogs gave plenty mouth and showed a lot of nose when the rabbit was up and we had a very good hunt. Again brains seperated these dogs from mine.
Eventually, I got into field trials in the Mid-West Association around '92.
They run AKC trials that go by the rules described in the AKC rulebook.
I don't know the author of the AKC rulebook, but in my opinion he was a brilliant houndsman. I judge some of these trials now and in my experience
a lot of dogs will coldtrail in the morning, especially on a frost. I rarely disqualify a hound for coldtrailing in these conditions unless it gets unbearable. I will demerit them and it may affect my total score later on.
I will, however disqualify a hound quick for running mute or silent on a hot rabbit. Most of the best hounds I've judged, though, do not coldtrail at all, but still have plenty of nose. One trait they have that seperates them from the rest is brains.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:46 am

Wells Woods,
Cold trailing for 30 minutes is a bit extreme for two hounds on a line before jumping the rabbit. It sounds more to me like something I have seen a couple of times at trials and once while hunting with a fella. Some hounds for what ever reason actually open and lay their own line!

I don't know if they are wishfull thinking or trying to look like they know what they are doing, but I have seen it. If you get a hound pulling that bologna and it is running with a less savy or inexperienced hound it too will open and join in thinking the other hound really has it, even though it can not smell the rabbit itself. The second dog is not thinking for itself and is relying on the first dog which in these situations is like the "blind leading the blind". I watched this fella's hound that I mentioned run in knee deep snow (Barkly was his name) on hare and my hounds were off searching for another hare as he ran for close to an hour by himself. I was feeling pretty bad as this hound put on a show like I had never seen. My hounds would not hark in and kept to themselves searching for a hare while this hound ran nonstop without a check on his hare. I finally got my buddy on the walkie talkie and the two of us set up to shoot this hare he was running. Low and behold several trips around past the both of us and his owner and their was NO HARE! This hound was doing a masterful job of laying track. He should have been working on the railroad!!

Or after all that maybe tied to it!!

In any event I would like to point out the possibility that your problem with the hounds you had may well have been a similar situation and not cold trailing. Just thought I'ld chime in.
Peace,
NYH

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:00 am

wells woods: Your experiance has served you well. On only a couple of occassions I have seen hounds open and run circles as if they had a rabbit but the other hounds did not hark to them and when we set up on them we found no rabbit in front of them. On those occassions their owners called it cold trailing but I had wondered if it were actually ghost trailing.

I've thought there could be three reasons for a hound cold trailing, one would be intelligence as you've pointed out another would be lack of nose and the third reason would be a disconect between the nose and the brain where a hound cannot process the information sent form the nose properly and has an inability to determine the age of the scent.

INtelligence seperates the wheat from the chaff in hounds.

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:45 am

seems to me a smarter dog with a better nose are the ones that cold trail and then shortly jump the rabbit. it the dumb weak nose dogs that are usually babblers. you guys who bash cold trailers must have never seen a good one. yes, there are a lot of babblers and idiots (same for people) but a cold trailer who does it right is a heck of a good dog to have around. are you guys saying on the "tough days" you'd rather take 2 hours to bump up a hot rabbit instead of having a dog that could coldtrail for a few minutes or yards til the jump? i think id rather raise poodles

than stand around when its 0 out and wait for a hot rabbit to be found when a decent cold trailer will get one up in a few minutes.

no offense meant to poodle lovers

.

swing · Post by **swing** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:13 pm

Brian,
Does your dog get the rabbit up 100% of the time when it cold trails

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:16 pm

blackdirt beagles wrote:seems to me a smarter dog with a better nose are the ones that cold trail and then shortly jump the rabbit. it the dumb weak nose dogs that are usually babblers. you guys who bash cold trailers must have never seen a good one. yes, there are a lot of babblers and idiots (same for people) but a cold trailer who does it right is a heck of a good dog to have around. are you guys saying on the "tough days" you'd rather take 2 hours to bump up a hot rabbit instead of having a dog that could coldtrail for a few minutes or yards til the jump? i think id rather raise poodles than stand around when its 0 out and wait for a hot rabbit to be found when a decent cold trailer will get one up in a few minutes.

no offense meant to poodle lovers .

That whole post was great. You can really tell who goes through boxes of shotgun shells.

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:19 pm

Why in the world would it take a hound who doesn't cold trail 2 hours to find a rabbit when the cold trailer can find one in a few minutes? If a cold trailer is following an old line and he is bound to that line it would HAVE to take him longer than the hound who searches for game rather than tracks. A good jump dog is not going to spend much time on a cold line but rather search out likely cover til he finds game. You're assuming that the hound who does not cold trail has an inferior nose and that simply is not the case. The two are not linked. I guarantee you there are many, many hounds who do not cold trail that will jump game faster than one who does, and have as good a nose as any other hound. The notion that all dogs with superior noses must cold trail is a myth.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:34 pm

Steve,
Lack of understanding, lack of experience & knowledge or they must have some cold trailers(those who give tongue on old tracks) to sell

...lol...Patch

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 12:55 pm

Steve C. wrote:The notion that all dogs with superior noses must cold trail is a myth.

What do you think the ratio is for superior nosed/perfect mouthed dogs as opposed to superior nose/occasional cold-trailing dogs?

Of course perfect mouth & superior nose is the ideal, but really, how many are around? I've heard of hundreds and seen none (not one) that had nose enough and had perfect mouth. From ME to IL to NC and a lot of places in between.

Is it foolish to simply state that your average good gundog will tend to have a bit of extra mouth and take a track with less scent in it? Or, is it foolish to condemn any misplaced barks in the name of some rule-book icon dog that might come around once every 400 or 500 dogs?

What puzzles me is that the popular belief seems to be that a hound with an errant bark is a cold-trailing fool. Then, you have guys like me and blackdirt beagles who say "you've probably got to put up with a bit of that if you're going to have a dog with enough nose to get it done". Then other guys say "there's no need for extra mouth, ever", and we're back to square one. With a big-nosed gundog there comes some baggage -- that's certainly the rule and not the exception. I'd prefer it not to be the case, but day after day of seeing different dogs try to run when most dogs can't proves otherwise.

S.R.Patch wrote:Steve,
Lack of understanding, lack of experience & knowledge or they must have some cold trailers to sell ...lol...Patch

Patch, it's unwise to assume any of that. Same as it would be unwise for us gun hunters to assume that someone so idealistic is more of a theorist than a practitioner. With a smile I'll offer: if you'd ever like to compare numbers of rabbits run to the gun, or days spent braving tough weather with dogs, from Jan. 1 to Dec. 31, I'll be more than happy to humor you.

beaglebill · Post by **beaglebill** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:03 pm

Sounds to me like Brian and a few others have not had the opportunity to hunt with a good i mean good jump dog. Im talkin about a dog that will go where most refuse to go. I have seen to many champs that go around briar patches. When i say jump i dont mean underneath a pine tree. But i guess thats another subject.lol

bkg · Post by **bkg** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:32 pm

I'm still looking for a cold trail hare hound that can do it right if anyone has one please contact me.

finwing@msn.com

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:06 pm

)swing- on average, if my dog starts to coldtrail, i would say that 4 out of 5 times the rabbit is jumped in a few minutes and forward progress is made and you can watch them work the trail. they are not on the edge of a field running around and happen to hit a hot rabbit, but they are on the trail.

steve c.- i like my dogs to hunt with me fairly close by so i can give them commands. i want a thorough searcher not a dog that will run thru an area hit and miss style. sure one could run 75 yards into the thick stuff and bump a hot rabbit, but how many did he run by on the way there?? i like all mine to be hard, get in the brush searchers, but they also have to be thorough. 2 of my dogs i would call excellant jump dogs (hard to beat on the jump) and they can both cold trail and they will stick with their line and work it (us hunters call this accounting for your rabbit

) until it is up and running but they will take a hot track first, of course, if it is available.

sr patch- you said: lack of knowledge, understanding, and experience... i guess i would have to say the same of you because obviously you dont have the knowledge, experience or understanding to see the difference between a dog that CAN coldtrail when needed and a babbling fool. thats too bad, they are a great asset on some days. and NO (hell no!) none of my dogs that cold trail are for sale. hopefully they will keep reproducing this trait in their offspring.

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:21 pm

beaglebill- if you would like to see briar patches and brush piles, bring some dogs and i'll buy lunch when we're done. and i dont mean that in a smart way, id love to show you. regular carhartts dont cut it here. i can go thru a pair of them easy in just july and august. im sure there are many places thicker and nastier, but where i hunt would definately be called thick and briary. ever run a 3 inch locust thorn into your leg or pull one out of your dogs foot (all the way thru)?? thats common here.

S.R.Patch · Post by **S.R.Patch** » Wed Dec 17, 2003 2:46 pm

No need to humor me Chris, your manner shows no lack of confidence, so I won't endeavor to hurt your pride. I've been down the road and back. Those that were bred for the nose that couldn't keep their mouth shut on the old trails(lack of brain), in the worst of conditions, babbled like fools on old trails when they were taken out in better scenting on different days. We had specialist that were only useful in the worst of times, for they would speak on the weakest of scent, regardless of age(loose mouthed), then when the scent layed well, they would trail and tell of every track layed by the rabbit throughout the night. There is a balance in hounds that has to be maintained, this balance is maintained by the talents the hound is bred for and born with, being processed and regulated by the brain.
I have always been a beagler and have only been in a few trials, so I speak from the hunters side also. The only difference I see in what we want is, you don't mind a hound to open on the old trails and I want them to work them silently, if they do, as to not interfere with the other hounds, but better yet, cut through them and hunt closer to the jump. It's nothing to do with nose, it's brains
Hope you find the hounds you seek.

Blackdirt,
I don't mind the hounds working up a track, just not coldtrailing(speaking) while they do.
Do not sell your hounds if they make you happy.

Best to you all...Patch