Tom I'm afraid I'm not getting a full understanding of your post. Could you clarify?
John: The pack is only as good as the individuals that make it up. A pack of poor hounds will make a poor pack and a pack of good ones will make a good pack. Is it possible that our difference is that you think I mean a hound that exhibits a fault is useless when what I mean is when a hound exhibits a fault (even an otherwise good one) we can recognise it as a fault and know where he needs improvemnet? Certainly an over faulty dog would be useless but as I've said many times no hound is perfect. A hound who exhibits a faulty action may well be a good hound depending on the severity of his fault but faulty he is and by recognizing his fault we can improve him.
warddog: no that's not what I am saying. Certainly hounds could make mistakes but that's not a fault. Certainly conditions can cause a check but that's not a fault and certainly hounds can engage in an action that WILL inhibit the run and that IS a fault. Certainly swinging is a faulty action that inhibits the quick trecovery of the line after a check. As to how the check occured being faulty or not that would depend on what happened to cause the check.
misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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tom/ desertdog
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:18 am
- Location: laquet mo.
joe, you think drifting [swinging] is a fault i don't. you think a drifter can't run a track as fast as a line dog ,ithink they are faster. i stated above iwas compareing them equal. you tell me how can a dog smelling track bye track. can run the same speed as a dog drifting 4 or 5 ft. up that same track. joe i like fast dogs, i just hunt thats all. if i trialed mabe i would see it different.
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Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Joe, it goes back to our original premise and that is: We all prefer dogs that do best in our eyes in the terrain and conditions where we hunt and run, (and the rabbits we run).
I do believe if I lived and ran in snow and scenting conditions like I see ya'll describing that I would like a different dog from what I keep now. Matter of fact, I probably wouldn't have any dogs at all if I had to get out in what ya'll do to hunt.
If I kept dogs that ran close and trialed, bred, or hunted that type, then I would never want a swinging dog near my pack as it would definately be a fault as it would hinder my packs performance.
Conversely, I like swinging dogs so it is not a fault to me in my pack, as they all will swing some. They swing quickly while still in a dead run.
Its not a fault in ARHA Little Pack and that 's why I trial, when I occasionally do, in their format. There is a limit though, I will not keep one that swings out and circles a cotton field as that is too much and that is not pack swinging, but skipping out and leaving the pack area.
We watch our packs and cut from the back and any faults that are disruptive.
I got in trouble by being quoted on the UKC site by saying this on this site and was raked over the coals. I also got a lot of calls and e-mails that agreed with me from UKC folks. I still stand by this next statement.
The dogs that I have had that run a close track and do not overrun any and do not swing cannot keep up all day every day with a fast swinging, rough running matched pack. They can if they have the foot speed physically, and there is no loses, but at the first and following loses, they start getting behind trying to run all or more of the track and wind up following and not participating in the front of the rough competitive run.
That 's not knocking close clean running dogs, its just a fact.
To a lot of folks they are getting cheated and I understand and agree with that, but they still become disruptive to the pack of swingers.
My brothers dogs do not swing, they also run in the same order everytime and do not pass each other. If one passes or bumps another dog off the trail, it is gone from his pack. Everytime they come by you, they will be in a line in the exact same order 1-6 and I know them all by name in that order. That's his preference.
On the other hand, Mine and my friends bump, shove, run over each other jostling for the front and the front is changing constantly. Make a lose, sound will die for a moment and they never check up physically running and swinging, and anothers got it and on and on. !0-20 dogs making a sound that echoes from the swamps and off the mountains and one friend says sounds like thunder coming over the mountain!
My sons and friends will put out their arms, wiggle their hands up and down at each other and hollar "Fire on the mountain, run boy run" when the dogs get to rolling. Ever heard that term? It's just a loud rolling roar, hard to pick out any voices.
Ever heard that Joe?
You'll never forget it!
I do believe if I lived and ran in snow and scenting conditions like I see ya'll describing that I would like a different dog from what I keep now. Matter of fact, I probably wouldn't have any dogs at all if I had to get out in what ya'll do to hunt.
If I kept dogs that ran close and trialed, bred, or hunted that type, then I would never want a swinging dog near my pack as it would definately be a fault as it would hinder my packs performance.
Conversely, I like swinging dogs so it is not a fault to me in my pack, as they all will swing some. They swing quickly while still in a dead run.
Its not a fault in ARHA Little Pack and that 's why I trial, when I occasionally do, in their format. There is a limit though, I will not keep one that swings out and circles a cotton field as that is too much and that is not pack swinging, but skipping out and leaving the pack area.
We watch our packs and cut from the back and any faults that are disruptive.
I got in trouble by being quoted on the UKC site by saying this on this site and was raked over the coals. I also got a lot of calls and e-mails that agreed with me from UKC folks. I still stand by this next statement.
The dogs that I have had that run a close track and do not overrun any and do not swing cannot keep up all day every day with a fast swinging, rough running matched pack. They can if they have the foot speed physically, and there is no loses, but at the first and following loses, they start getting behind trying to run all or more of the track and wind up following and not participating in the front of the rough competitive run.
That 's not knocking close clean running dogs, its just a fact.
To a lot of folks they are getting cheated and I understand and agree with that, but they still become disruptive to the pack of swingers.
My brothers dogs do not swing, they also run in the same order everytime and do not pass each other. If one passes or bumps another dog off the trail, it is gone from his pack. Everytime they come by you, they will be in a line in the exact same order 1-6 and I know them all by name in that order. That's his preference.
On the other hand, Mine and my friends bump, shove, run over each other jostling for the front and the front is changing constantly. Make a lose, sound will die for a moment and they never check up physically running and swinging, and anothers got it and on and on. !0-20 dogs making a sound that echoes from the swamps and off the mountains and one friend says sounds like thunder coming over the mountain!
My sons and friends will put out their arms, wiggle their hands up and down at each other and hollar "Fire on the mountain, run boy run" when the dogs get to rolling. Ever heard that term? It's just a loud rolling roar, hard to pick out any voices.
Ever heard that Joe?
You'll never forget it!
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Ted Peercy
- Posts: 175
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 8:23 am
- Location: McMinnville, TN
OH BOY! Now John brings in skipping. We've got swinging, reaching, and skipping. Swinging:to sway or move backward and forward. Reaching:to thrust out. Skipping:to pass from one point to another. Fault:a flaw or defect. Fault Finding:criticizing. Hunter Fault:living in upstate New York where winters are 6 months long and you have to have beagles with line control in order to keep a rabbit moving. Priceless:being able to decide for yourself what the faults are in your beagles.
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Tommy Oliver
Sounds to me like ya'll need to come down here, and run with these two Basset Hounds I have. They will show you how its done, and done right. -
New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
- Location: Soldotna, Alaska
Ted,
This rabbit has been circled so many times I think it may die of exaustion!
Swinging, skipping, jumping, hopping, back and forthing, foaming at the freaking mouth. Oh my goodness! How many more ways can we pick the meat off the bones of this one?
Lets shoot it and put it in the game bag already.
By the way I need to set something straight once and for all. In N.Y. we do not have 6 months of winter. We have 10 months of winter and 2 months of bad sledding!
One of my southern buddies asked me one time why we talk and move about so fast up here. The answer is simple, so we don't freeze in one spot!
Peace,
NYH
By the way one of my other warm climate buddies just asked me if I had taken up ice fishing. I forgot to answer him when I wrote him back. So if you read this post Dogdreamer the answer is no. If God wanted me to fish in the winter he wouldn't have closed the lake!
This rabbit has been circled so many times I think it may die of exaustion!
Swinging, skipping, jumping, hopping, back and forthing, foaming at the freaking mouth. Oh my goodness! How many more ways can we pick the meat off the bones of this one?
Lets shoot it and put it in the game bag already. By the way I need to set something straight once and for all. In N.Y. we do not have 6 months of winter. We have 10 months of winter and 2 months of bad sledding!
One of my southern buddies asked me one time why we talk and move about so fast up here. The answer is simple, so we don't freeze in one spot!Peace,
NYH
By the way one of my other warm climate buddies just asked me if I had taken up ice fishing. I forgot to answer him when I wrote him back. So if you read this post Dogdreamer the answer is no. If God wanted me to fish in the winter he wouldn't have closed the lake!
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
ice fishing
hillbilly . all my life ive said ice fishing is for guys that dont have good rabbit dogs. a few more days hunting like last two days i may have to rethink this. do you know i went by lake and i see smoke coming out of shantys. some just have propane heaters. no smoke. its warm in those shantys . when thermometer says -30 might be better off ice fishing. pete
Tom: The drifting part I'm not entirely clear on the way you describe it it sounds more like weaving then swinging. But anyway who said anything about running track to track? why can't line control hounds take advantage of the hight scent when available. In fact they would be potterers ifthey did not take advantage of it. As I said in an earlier post the fastest hound I have ever seen was a;so a line control hound.
John: The swinger in a pack with hounds who do not swng does not mess up the pack mearly by swinging unless there is something else wrong. "They will swing quickly while at a dead run" Could you describe that action in more detail?
Your point about the swinging rough running hounds whipping the line control hounds is true to a point sometimes BUT it depends on the hounds in the packs. Many things might be going on both with the hounds in the pack and the conditions of the day that might make it seem that way if you are only looking to see which hound is in front and not paying close careful attention to which hounds are keeping the run going. That is not to say that a swinging, rough pack cannot beat a line control pack it is mearly to say they can't beat a good pack. Now certainly any pack can be whipped on a certain day but over the long haul for a hutning season for example the line control pack (if they are a good pack) will whip the rough pack. Fastest is not always bestest and vary often when you head a pack the runs not only get better they also get faster.
Sounds like your bothers pack,from your desciption,are potterers who lack desire.
There is a fine edge between a cooperative pack of dedicated hounds full of desire and intent on catching their game and a pack of individuals each out for them seleves or a pack who doesn't want to pass his pack mates. The pack running that edge is what we seek and a little this way or that and the edge is lost. Never herd that saying but have herd the thunder.
John: The swinger in a pack with hounds who do not swng does not mess up the pack mearly by swinging unless there is something else wrong. "They will swing quickly while at a dead run" Could you describe that action in more detail?
Your point about the swinging rough running hounds whipping the line control hounds is true to a point sometimes BUT it depends on the hounds in the packs. Many things might be going on both with the hounds in the pack and the conditions of the day that might make it seem that way if you are only looking to see which hound is in front and not paying close careful attention to which hounds are keeping the run going. That is not to say that a swinging, rough pack cannot beat a line control pack it is mearly to say they can't beat a good pack. Now certainly any pack can be whipped on a certain day but over the long haul for a hutning season for example the line control pack (if they are a good pack) will whip the rough pack. Fastest is not always bestest and vary often when you head a pack the runs not only get better they also get faster.
Sounds like your bothers pack,from your desciption,are potterers who lack desire.
There is a fine edge between a cooperative pack of dedicated hounds full of desire and intent on catching their game and a pack of individuals each out for them seleves or a pack who doesn't want to pass his pack mates. The pack running that edge is what we seek and a little this way or that and the edge is lost. Never herd that saying but have herd the thunder.
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tom/ desertdog
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:18 am
- Location: laquet mo.
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
Tom, I'm not sure a poll would help. I think a lot of the discussions here arise out of different meanings to terms, speed, etc. One persons "8" speed may be another persons "5". I think it may be the same for line control, etc.
I hunt, don't trial, although I have entered a few. To my way of thinking, my hounds are pretty quick, a 6 or 7, with good line control. To you they may be a 8 or 9 or a 4 or 5. One other myth I would like to put to rest, and I don't mean to upset any trialers....but the few trials I have been too, they left down a lot rougher hounds than I would care for. Overrunning tracks, etc. It seems speed was their main concern. Just my humble opinion from what I've observed.
I hunt, don't trial, although I have entered a few. To my way of thinking, my hounds are pretty quick, a 6 or 7, with good line control. To you they may be a 8 or 9 or a 4 or 5. One other myth I would like to put to rest, and I don't mean to upset any trialers....but the few trials I have been too, they left down a lot rougher hounds than I would care for. Overrunning tracks, etc. It seems speed was their main concern. Just my humble opinion from what I've observed.
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
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tom/ desertdog
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:18 am
- Location: laquet mo.
beagleman you are probley right, don't you think a dog can run 9 or 10,swing, drift, weave and still run a good line of scent? is speed in you mind what determends good line control. and you are right about some trials being rough i've seen the same my self the few i have been to . friend in sport tom
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James Carman
Ideal dog
I started reading this at daybreak. It is nearly 5:00 pm now. I think that I will go sell all my dogs because they ain't worth diddly compared to the ones mentioned here. I saw one of mine sight chase a rabbit backwards the other day. Ran him until he picked him up out of the nest on the day he was born. Beat that one.
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
Tom,
I have a friend that has a hound that I would classify a 9 or 10 and he doesn't swing, drift, ect. I don't personally think that line control and speed are all inclusive. A hound can be extremely fast and still run with good line control. It still comes down to a matter of conditions, scenting, terrain, etc. A hound running in a weed field can run much faster than one in a briar thicket.
As far as you asking good they still run a good line of scent, in some cases yes they could. If you have a good high scent, a hound can drift, swing, etc and do just fine.
I still think we all may be closer on this subject than it appears. What Joe and I can reaching at a hard check, others could call swinging. Personally, I could live with that at a check much easier than one swinging back and forth across the line while running the track.
It all boils down to one thing, all hounds have some faults, there are no perfect hound. Same goes with hunters and trialers, we are not perfect.
I have a friend that has a hound that I would classify a 9 or 10 and he doesn't swing, drift, ect. I don't personally think that line control and speed are all inclusive. A hound can be extremely fast and still run with good line control. It still comes down to a matter of conditions, scenting, terrain, etc. A hound running in a weed field can run much faster than one in a briar thicket.
As far as you asking good they still run a good line of scent, in some cases yes they could. If you have a good high scent, a hound can drift, swing, etc and do just fine.
I still think we all may be closer on this subject than it appears. What Joe and I can reaching at a hard check, others could call swinging. Personally, I could live with that at a check much easier than one swinging back and forth across the line while running the track.
It all boils down to one thing, all hounds have some faults, there are no perfect hound. Same goes with hunters and trialers, we are not perfect.
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
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New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
- Location: Soldotna, Alaska
James,
That was funny! But I think it went right over their heads. Like the Energizer Bunny they keep going and going and going and .........
And to my Vermont buddy I think you may have a point. Someday we will have to get together so I can tell you aboiut my only ice fishing "discursions" as I refer to them. It's hysterical stuff but to long winded to type. My season has been an absolute bust as the weather has been the worst in some 20 years that I can remember. I plan to get my wife to help me post some pictures so folks can get a peek at what we talk about up this way. Hope the runnin gets better for you. As for me I think I'll just sit down and think of better days to come.
Peace,
NYH
That was funny! But I think it went right over their heads. Like the Energizer Bunny they keep going and going and going and .........
And to my Vermont buddy I think you may have a point. Someday we will have to get together so I can tell you aboiut my only ice fishing "discursions" as I refer to them. It's hysterical stuff but to long winded to type. My season has been an absolute bust as the weather has been the worst in some 20 years that I can remember. I plan to get my wife to help me post some pictures so folks can get a peek at what we talk about up this way. Hope the runnin gets better for you. As for me I think I'll just sit down and think of better days to come.
Peace,
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
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tom/ desertdog
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:18 am
- Location: laquet mo.