New judges in Mid-West

[Farm dog]

I've gone to a 10 dog or even a 15 dog 2nd series because those dogs needed to be brought back. But to sit here and say it should always be 9 in the winners pack is the same as saying there should always be 14 in 2nd series instead of sometimes bringing 12. It's up to the judges how many get brought back and I've had packs where I brought every dog back to the next round and I've had packs that nothing came back. You can't sit here and say it's automatic this many make each series of this many automatic make winners pack

[Ohiohntr]

I tend to only bounce back on this board once and awhile but as a "retired" judge I feel I can put my .02 in as this is a worthy topic that causes handlers heartburn and sometimes they don't understand what a judge can possibly be thinking. So here goes my pocket change.....

I'm going on record to say I hate 9 dog winners packs with a passion, always have and always will...I don't think 9 dogs should ever be on the ground at the same time in SPO...I don't rabbit hunt with 9 dogs on the ground at the same time, nor does anyone else I know....I have been known to go to a 3rd series 10 dogs because that is what needed to be done and we had the rabbits to do it. In fact, the last time I remember doing it our #10 dog at the time ended up winning the trial....is what it is, handlers were PO'd with the decision to go to third series and pushed for a 9 dog WP (especially the guy who owned the #10 dog but he didn't know it at the time). I personally feel I can better evaluate hounds in a smaller pack setting and I tend to get better score....that's just me for the reasons below.

1. Typically it is a cluster f' if running is bad
2. If running is great then judges aren't going to see anything but maybe a line or two, does not promote any sort of check work
3. If dogs are not painted it is nearly impossible to catch the color of collar in a pack of 9 all fighting for the front
4. It ends up being an endurance test
5. Dogs are run in packs of 7 or less all day....Why throw them in a pack of 9 at the end?...Just to see if their brains will scramble?, heck of a good idea

Follow my logic here....keep in mind I do not know what happened to your dog this past weekend...but I have a feeling it has more to do with that than "getting new judges"

21 entries
12 or 14 dog 2nd series
Seems to me if I can't figure out 6 or 7 of the best running dogs out of 12 or 14 after watching them run for a few hours then I probably shouldn't be judging in the first place...

I believe you might be talking about the past when 50-60 entries were the norm....In that case, yes when you still have 25+ dogs for a 2nd series then the discussion has to be "cut to a 9 dog winners pack or run a third series".

To promote "new" judging by insinuating that they must go to a 9 dog winners pack and run it till dark just to make the handlers happy just to prove they are closely looking at the pack is completely taking away the ability to make good sound decisions out of their hands....which is counterproductive to what you are wanting....it is a very slippery slope because it can be interpreted just the opposite and if there are only 9 entries then the "new" judges run all 9 till the sun goes down or the dogs quit because Mr. Wells said we have to and we are able to....Where does it stop?

My daughters volleyball team lost a heartbreaker this weekend to their rival team due to a "bad" line call....everyone was pissed....I said "The score should have never been that close in the first place...never leave it up to a line judge to determine how good of a game you played because your serving was terrible all 3 sets...to give you that call with the way you guys played would have been nothing short of charity, now go shake their hands".

[WELLS WOODS]

Unless judges are seeing 100 % of the running which never happens, the dogs should be thinned down as slowly as possible in my opinion removing the extremely faulty hounds first. The best, most hard working judges might see 40 % of the action. I do believe if you're going to a two pack second series, judges should bring back 14 & run them hard in the second series until the dogs separate themselves. This should eliminate a lot of luck & mistakes from our field trials by judging more hounds longer. As soon as you can agree on the best 9, end second series & start the winners pack. Give the dogs a break to rest before you cast the winners pack by measuring them & if you had another decent dog or two that didn't make it to winners pack, have them on the bubble if something measures out. Then run that winners pack hard & make cuts about every hour until you get to the top five & if you've done your job right, you should have the best running of the day. Every dog got an extremely good look & the best prevailed. This system should leave everyone confident that the best dogs placed. If two dogs stand out & their isn't a clear winner, I also believe in going to a brace & let the chips fall where they may. These casts going out for 15 to 20 minutes & very little of it seen & then making huge cuts is a joke & will destroy our field trials. Why is everyone in such a hurry these days? By running them long & hard & making thin cuts between series, leaves everyone knowing the dogs were given their chance & they got their money's worth. Everyone isn't rich; Some spend their last dollar to attend these trials. The least we can do is judge them properly & have judges that care enough about the sport to give every dog the best look possible. I love the Mid-West & want to see it prosper, but nothing is too big to die & it will start from the most basic part of a field trial; the judges.

[WELLS WOODS]

Kelly, I thought you were a fine judge & hope you get back in it. Your style worked just fine because you were honest & tried to find the best hounds, but I've never had trouble judging a 9 dog winners pack. And yes, my thread about new young judges is stemmed from my experience this weekend. Not because my dog didn't win, but watching 2 second series packs on the ground for maybe 30 minutes total if you don't count the great running we had deep in the woods after the judges had already quit & went back to the club house. How they could claim to see enough to cut to a 6 or7 dog winners pack is beyond me. We had plenty game, plenty time, so I don't understand the hurry to make important decisions without running the hounds longer.
I really don't care how many dogs judges bring back to a winners pack, that was just how I did it to make sure I wasn't leaving a contender out by mistake. I just want more hard working judges that will bust their butt like we did in the old days. That's what the Mid-West was built on; good judging & bringing amazing hounds to light & improving the breed.

[Ohiohntr]

[quote="WELLS WOODS"] I do believe if you're going to a two pack second series, judges should bring back 14 & run them hard in the second series until the dogs separate themselves.quote]

I'll play along because I haven't been to a trial in years and can't speak to the current amount of time judges are giving packs or what they are or aren't getting score wise but I can speak to the AKC rules as they are written loosely for a reason.....I also feel this is good discussion as like with "Accomplishment over Style"...this too is up for interpretation.

If 21 dogs are entered under your thought/judging process would it not even be better and more satisfying to the handlers to then go to a 20 dog 2nd series, and then a 19 dog 3rd series...etc etc etc....Why only 14? If I am the owner of the #15 bubble dog in the 1st series do I not have the same gripe as the #8 dog that got cut out in 2nd series? Should the judges have given my dog more time in the 1st series to prove itself to be a top 14 contender?

What if you can't figure out a #13 or #14.....Do you flip a coin and hope that the dogs randomly selected get better as the day goes on?

Yes, that is extreme and will never happen but the point is "it could"....Insinuating beyond the written AKC rule book can get rather tricky. Ultimately lets be honest, AKC is the one who is losing money if your theory is correct...clubs are break even at best on trials other than maybe the food.

If you feel AKC should put a minimum time limit on casts then you should propose a rule change to AKC instead of promoting your ideas (some I agree with) through new judges.

Funny....the most PO'd handler I have ever had at me judging was because he said "we took too long", his dog made the winners pack but we ran out of light...he was so mad he did not bring his dog back the next day.

[eddywilliams]

I agree with less than 9 dogs in a winners pack that is my preference ,7 is about all i like but I can live with either number . I have yet to see a judge not giving it his all ,terrain ,age ..... has a lot to do with it .Tony Eyers ,Bryan Bush ,Denny ,Arlie these guys can get to them .

[WELLS WOODS]

What I meant was, if you are going to a two pack second series, why not bring back two full packs of 7 ? That leaves room for any mistakes that a judge could have made on any dogs. We all make mistakes, overlook dogs or just miss a lot of the running. I would hate to overlook the best dog there & it is possible. Getting a second look at more hounds only makes sense to me as a judge that wants to be sure the best dogs move on.
There shouldn't be a time limit on casts. It's not how long you are out there, it is how much of the running the judge is actually seeing. I've never been able to see enough to judge by staying on a horse all day. There are places the horses can't go & we need athletic, tough judges that can judge on foot when needed. I like to see at least an hour of running before I can determine which hounds are the best quality. A lot of hounds are very close on score & ability & there's a lot of tough decisions. That's why I tend to want to bring back all of the quality hounds to the next series that I can. These tough decisions between very nice hounds in every pack is usually why I fill my winners packs up with 9 hounds & give them all the ground time possible until I'm sure I've made the right move.

[Chimney Rock Kennel]

In the words of a judge who I respect a lot " everyone is in a hurry to get home to a birthday party now a days"

[Ohiohntr]

In the words of a judge who I respect a lot " everyone is in a hurry to get home to a birthday party now a days"

Birthday!!!! Cake is at birthdays and I do like cake....maybe that's why I'm not judging anymore.

I certainly would not pass Gregs fitness test anymore.

Oh well....I was just playin Devils advocate on the whole deal as debating with the wife is getting old (because she always loses).

[Chimney Rock Kennel]

Just trying to add a little humor seems like it was getting all serious in here Kelly. However IMO which isn't much I do see valid points from everyone that's posted so far. I do believe they are good "new" judges out there that if given the chance will be an asset to the Midwest Federation.

[WELLS WOODS]

I don't pass the fitness test to judge in the Mid-West either Kelly, but I sure enjoyed watching those hounds run when I could keep up with them. I hope some young, honest, fleet footed houndsmen step up & accept the challenge. Can't judge them if you can't see them.

[likeemfast]

In the words of a judge who I respect a lot " everyone is in a hurry to get home to a birthday party now a days"

That is a 100pct spot on statement right there.

Nothing important to say on this thread, just bored. ....... I dont trial, and doubt i ever will but i can say for a good many years i ran hounds till whenever i felt like it, was the last one to close the bar, played golf till dark and then closed that bar, went to parties and was the last to leave, hunted when i wanted and fished till i wanted. Life was what i wanted to do till i wanted to do it. At that point and time in my life i MIGHT OF made a good judge except for a couple things, 1) i am overly critical of hunt and wouldnt tolerate a hound on the ground unless it was a hunting fool and 2) i havnt run since highschool and still dont unless a bus load of seniors pulls into McDonalds at the same time i do then i turn on the after burners to get in the door before them. This will now be my 15th year of marriage and now my boy is 11 my girl 8 and life happened to me also, but i wouldnt trade any of it for anything. I still run hounds as much as i can and hunt every chance i get (my son loves both) but 1st and foremost im a father and husband. Also lets not forget the fact wives dont tolerate what they used to anymore. Leave a wife home nowadays by herself all weekend every weekend with the kids and find out what that gets ya. No more does mom hold down the fort while dad plays all day and does what he wants. Now sporting events are a family affair, parents and grandparents attend and cheer on little Johnny hitting the ball off that plastic stand at the tee-ball game. Everyone watches Jill at her dance recital also, and those birthday parties are no longer just the family, now its 15 of your kids friends at some place of business that specializes in kids birthday parties and it costs ya a couple hundred bucks to entertain peoples kids ya dont even know.

Good luck in your search for judges that wont ever get married or have already found out the hard way about the above wives.

[Ohiohntr]

Lol...me too, heck I could really care less although I still love the sound of a good race and love to see a good hound work.

I do think that sometimes we hate the players instead of the game and what I was trying to point out that the AKC rule book is set up for a ton of interpretation...there are no set time limits, there are no set disqualifications (other than fighting), there are few rules on pack numbers or bringing dogs back...etc....yet we hold judges to parameters we set in our own minds that aren't really there in the rules. Therefore, as we all know....you better bring a dog that is gonna rock and roll start to finish and leave no room for error because you don't know if there will be a 2nd chance.

I still believe to ask me as a judge to "fill my packs" is charity work....does it work out sometimes where a dog all the sudden comes "alive", absolutely. As one judge told me one time (held true)...."these are a bunch of NBQ dogs, none really want it or they would prove it now...not five hours from now". I was as offended that day as the handlers were too...but there was a lot of truth in that statement as every dog had a chance to be the hero but couldn't pull it off.

Just my .02....and I still hate 9 dog winners packs

[WELLS WOODS]

Kelly, I always wanted to ask you about a trial that I ran under you once a few years ago. We had two second series packs of 13 dogs (7 in the first pack & 6 in the 2nd). The first pack ran a rabbit nonstop for about an hour. I remember Kickem up Kane was in the pack ,Mark Brown had a dog, I had that big Showtime male, Bull, etc, etc,. The pack ran really well & several dogs were getting score because the gallery could see most of it. You didn't pick up any dogs in the pack. Okay, the second pack were cast. They jumped a rabbit, ran it about 50 yards, had a check & then backtracked it back to the jump. Well you all worked them on and jumped another rabbit for them ; they ran it about 5 minutes ,lost it & the race was over. You worked them a little farther ;couldn't jump a rabbit so you picked up the pack. Well, some of us in the first pack started talking & thought it sure looked good for the first pack. You called 8 dogs to the winners pack. I didn't make it, so I was driving home & looked at my book & noticed you only brought 3 back from the good running pack & 5 out of the 6 dogs in the pack that couldn't do anything. What was the thinking behind that if you don't mind me asking?

[Ohiohntr]

No problem....I was just talking to Bryan tonight about this exact trial as it was in the Ostrich pen where you have to climb over the fences and ultimately I think the win went to Roy Noes Reggie dog (I think), I know Kane was up there too but if I'm thinking right Reggie got through a fence quick on the last rabbit and pounded solo. I believe after that trial you also posted on the MW site about judges not going to 9 dog winners packs....what you didn't know is your dog wouldn't have been #9 anyhow.

Anyhow....2-3 dogs got most of the score in the first pack leaving nothing for the rest of the pack to clean up and they never could overtake them...they (Reggie and Kane) absolutely dominated!! I literally had score on 1 or 2 dogs....the rest was enjoying the ride.

In the 2nd pack....while the running did not sound as good there was some really good hound work such as hunt and a few jumps which I merit both highly. What you and the gallery called a backtrack that day was actually where I accidentally cut the rabbit off and turned it and then the pack turned it back again. The track was a total mess on that fence row so we moved on....as for the other events it sounds like you remember more than me.

Therefore when Bryan and I got together it was awful hard to say that dogs with little to no score in the first pack were better than dogs with more score than the dogs in the 2nd pack.

All I know is in the middle of the winners pack the marshal was puking his guts out, I got dehydrated and had blisters to the point I had to take the week off work, and for once I seen Bryan tired.

Never mind the fact this trial is the reason I quit trialing all together....I finished out my assignments and bowed out....my daughter who was at the truck asked everyone at the parking lot to take her to the clubhouse because she had to go to the restroom and was completely ignored by most and then was told to not bother me because I was judging....she ended up peeing her pants in my truck and was an embarrased mess....she would and will not show her face at another field trial, nor would I expect her to.

Tell me again about your dog that didn't make winners pack....I do believe 1/2 of that winners pack went on to become FC's so maybe we got lucky or something.