when do you call it "your line"

[DarrinG]

I have to disagree. The work and dedication it takes to build/clean up and develop a strain of hounds is a "big thing". It's what makes a man on his death bed worry of what will become of his hounds and will they be kept as a family...
Now, if you believe breeding is all a crapshoot anyway, this will mean nothing to you. But, If you are a believer in the absolute powers of heredity, it will make you shiver at the thought of those who think this way.
Your right Darrin, Randall wasn't worried about his name on the hounds, but only about the "family" he had created, or as you say, it was all about the hounds...Patch

I understand to a point what you're saying Patch, but some of your post is a little "cloudy" to my noggin, LOL.

My post above wasn't intended to sound like I believe breeding hounds is a "crap shoot". I strongly believe in watching dogs run as long as possible, studying current offspring and lastly looking at pedigrees. In other words, doing your homework before tossing a male in with a female. That being said first, I've personally seen breedings take place from 2 nice running hounds, where the breeding was studied well, and the pups turned out basically worthless for useable hunting hounds. I think they made good pets though. It just seems to me that too many folks these days are too worried about their name being attached to some hounds. Kind of like some sort of stardom, to make their names well-known in the beagling world. Why I dont know. Maybe they think they can make big bucks somewhere down the road with their name recognition on future sale of puppies? (No Brian I'm NOT insinuating you would do this!). When I breed 2 hounds, I put alot of thought into the cross, I mean ALOT. And I wear out some boot leather too (and my truck, driving all over, LOL). I breed for MY needs and wants, not what I think the trial circuit wants or what I can sell. If I have a few excess pups and sell them, thats fine, but they were bred on hopw I believe they will turn out for my likes, not someone elses. If someone else happens to like them too, well then, thats icing on the cake.

I can tell you one thing for certain Patch, when I am lying on my death bed, you can take it to the bank that I will not be thinking anything about a bunch of hounds......for I will be anticipating on seeing my Lord Jesus Christ in His glory....nothing else will matter friend!

[blackdirt beagles]

good answers guys! keep them coming. my thoughts are that whether you linebreed or outcross that after 3 generations of breeding with a plan that the line is pretty much yours to improve or mess up. so far i been having what i call a very good success with these dogs. so im gonna keep breeding this (my) line and see where it goes in another 4 or 5 generations. keep giving me some opinions on this as its a good topic and my mind isnt 100% made up yet.

[Bopeye]

I can tell you one thing for certain Patch, when I am lying on my death bed, you can take it to the bank that I will not be thinking anything about a bunch of hounds......for I will be anticipating on seeing my Lord Jesus Christ in His glory....nothing else will matter friend!

AMEN!!!

[S.R.Patch]

Very good answer Darrin, taking my statement to the extreem to make me a fool. I get you point though.
All the best ...Patch

[pwill]

I to have often wondered about when you could or should call a line yours. I think if someone has put in years and years of time ,effort, blood , sweat and tears to make a line of beagles that can run with any beagles out there and do it consistantly , I would call that their line of hounds, example Patch,Branko, BOLDSTROKE...and others.

If you take a dog out of a line , say Patch for example and you run that dog and he is a real good dog and then you find a female from another line , say Boldstroke, that runs just like you like her to, you breed, have pups , raise all the pups , train them and they do very well, then you go back and find another real good producer from another line and bred to one of the pups and , you do it all over again, and see what you get , if your lucky ,they turn out to be good dogs, if not then you start all over with another producer. When you have done this and can come up with the same kind of pups on a consistant basis, then I would think you have yourself a line of your own.

I know my examples are not exact but I think you get the picture.

I have a line that has been line bred for years and years and only making out crosses when needed. I have had this line in my kennel for 3 or 4 years, I know own 22 dogs and all but 2 have the name that the original breeder gave the line,why because he is the one that laid the ground work, put in all the hard work, I`m just keeping the line going. I bought most of what he had when he sold out and what I didn`t buy a friend did so we could keep it going.

Do we want credit, no
Do we want fame and fortune, OF COURSE...LOL but we will not get it messing with beagles LOL

Do we think it is important to keep his kennel name on the dogs ...YES... To honor the man who started the line it was his lifes work....

Well thats enough rambling on.......hope this makes sense.....Paul

[Alabama John]

Paul
Think about this. When you outcross your Boldstrokes to another line that someone has put just as much time in as the Boldstroke breeder did, what will you call the pups line? When the Boldstroke owner outcrossed, he called the pups that were half Boldstrokes his continuation of the Boldstrokes line. What credit did the outcrossed line get? Could he have split the pups with the outcrossed line's owner and could the outcrossed line owner called his pups by his line's name also and considered his line was just outcrossed as necessary, using the Boldstrokes? Half the pups registered as Boldstrokes and the other half registered as the other line. Why not? Do you give the name to the sire's line, or the dam's? I think you have your own line and they go back to the Boldstrokes and also whatever else you cross into them.
No line is kept pure anything for long or problems will start occuring. When you outcross as you must, you then have cut the line your dogs are based on 50%. When you outcross those pups, the originators line is cut to 25% and so on. The result is your line you're building, not the originators line.

[S.R.Patch]

Breeding is not regulated by percentages ie.. 1/2 this/ 1/2 that. It is the traits we breed for. Taking your "line" and crossing it onto another that most resembles it in traits and qualities is the best, so as to keep down the variable that may be brought into your line. You only crossout to bring in something your lacking or needing in your line, while keeping most qualities intack(hopefully) by breeding like to like. It's best that the two lines crossed complement each other and that their breeders have the same "ideal" in mind...Patch

[Alabama John]

Patch
I agree with you 100%. This topic is Blackdirt's concern as when does his line become his instead of Bramlett's as I understand it.
If he breeds one of his dogs to one of mine for the reasons you righty stated, then the pups will be just as much my line as his as they are 50% each. Actually we both outcrossed our lines to the others for the same reasons. The resulting pups will be both our individual lines and not the so called originators line.
I think we give way too much credit to what we call a line's name, either for posterity and we respected the person that named the line we have some % of running in our line of dogs veins, or because the pups sell better.

[Guest]

remember it takes 20 years to become an overnight success,

then call it your line

jerry kelly









y kelly

[DarrinG]

Very good answer Darrin, taking my statement to the extreem to make me a fool. I get you point though.
All the best ...Patch

Patch, you're definately nobody's "fool".....The best to you as well!

PWill, good post. BTW, it was a pleasure meeting you and chatting with you at the trial at Blue Ridge awhile back. We need to get together sometime and run hounds!

[pwill]

John, you are right , the outcross doesn`t get much credit and it does cut the blood to 50 % but then you bring it back in. That makes the pups out of that cross 75 % and cross back in until 100 % again. The outcrossing is kept to as few as possible. When you look at a 3 or 4 or 5 gen. pedigree and all you see is Boldstroke you can tell that the blood is close. I see where your coming from and you are correct. The outcross should get some credit.

Think about this because this has happened, you have a good stud out of a great line ,good reproduction record, you breed to a female out of a good line and the pups don`t turn out to be anything, who gets the blame.... Most of the time it will be the stud.....just another twist.....


GREAT DISCUSION!!!!!!!!!!

Darrin, we do need to get together and run or hunt some this year. Just let me know, Thanks Paul

[Aaron Bartlett]

Brian,
I dont follow the Bramlett line and im not sure how you have been breeding but......... I think that if someone bought a male and a female from Bramlett and bred them, then went back to Bramlett and used one of his stud dogs to breed to that offspring and kept this up even if the Studs from Bramlett might be somewhat of a out cross that it would still be considered the "Bramlett line". Once you out cross with something of your own choice that isnt from Bramlett then I feel its no longer Bramlett and could be considered your own line. Clear as mud?

[S.R.Patch]

Hi guys,
Good topic, keeps me getting up and coming back to look. Flu bug has got me now for the 3rd day. Cold , then sweat, head feels like it could blow every time I cough.
Any way, thought I would throw one more thing into the pot. let's say, I like blackdirts hounds & also John's. They are alike in type and complement each other in ability & quality. Now I believe if I wanted to create my own line of hounds I would talk them out of a few of their best for they've done alot of work to clean up their lines and I want to have the advantage of their years of work and not have to reinvent this wheel. I would breed these two lines together and keep all the puppies to evaluate and those that matured & met my standard or developed into my kind of hound, I would then breed these together to set the qualities they were gifted with. If things got shaky, I could go back out to one of the orginal two line to pick up what I needed and then have another go at it. Typically, new lines or strain of hounds are created by breeding and blending two existing lines or families...Patch

[blackdirt beagles]

to clarify - there are some outcrossed dogs in this line.

[Alabama John]

Patch
Hope you get well soon and I see you are getting better and your mind clearing as you are agreeing with me!!! You explained it well as always and that is what I think Blackdirt is and has done in his breeding. He might have used more than one line ultimately to outcross to his, but that is immaterial.

So, this is his own line of dogs he's breeding. Satisfied yet Brian?

Paul
You're right, the big name stud usually gets all the credit for the good and also the blame for the bad pups.

Same thing in the big kennel name. If you call yourself breeding their line and your pups are doing well and winning in trials, it is OK to say its their line you're using. Let the pups be no good and see if it isn't your own line you've created by your outcrossing.