"I thought it was an Elk"
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Adam M. O'Donnell
- Posts: 304
- Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:13 pm
- Location: Durand, Michigan
Two notes: Two years ago my buddy killed a Sika Deer. He knew what it was though! LOL. And no he didn't have to tag it either.
Also two years ago my Grand Nite Ch. Treeing Walker coonhound ran an old bad track onto some private property. I drove around to get closer so I could go in and catch him. But no sooner did I get out of the truck and locate him, I heard gun shots from a .22 cal rifle. I charged in there like a rhino, only to find the land owner sneaking out of the woods with his lights off. He had drove his Chevy S-10 back in there and found the dog still trailing, and shot him dead. Took his collars off him and headed for home. The dogs collar and tracking collar covered in his own blood told the story. I stopped him in the woods on a two track trail. And somehow managed to keep my cool, while informing the land owner he had just made a grave mistake, that would cost him dearly! I took that sucker to court and was awarded $9,500.00. I don't think he'll shoot anymore dogs anytime soon! Here in Michigan we are permitted to retrieve our hounds as long as we do not take a gun. I like it that way!
Also two years ago my Grand Nite Ch. Treeing Walker coonhound ran an old bad track onto some private property. I drove around to get closer so I could go in and catch him. But no sooner did I get out of the truck and locate him, I heard gun shots from a .22 cal rifle. I charged in there like a rhino, only to find the land owner sneaking out of the woods with his lights off. He had drove his Chevy S-10 back in there and found the dog still trailing, and shot him dead. Took his collars off him and headed for home. The dogs collar and tracking collar covered in his own blood told the story. I stopped him in the woods on a two track trail. And somehow managed to keep my cool, while informing the land owner he had just made a grave mistake, that would cost him dearly! I took that sucker to court and was awarded $9,500.00. I don't think he'll shoot anymore dogs anytime soon! Here in Michigan we are permitted to retrieve our hounds as long as we do not take a gun. I like it that way!
Failure to prepare, is preparing to fail.
Shiawassee Bottom Beagles
Shiawassee Bottom Beagles
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YGD ( BUNNY BUSTER)
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SMITTY1233
- Posts: 478
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 12:52 pm
Here in MI you can retrieve any hound on another property as long as you are un-armed and not pursing any game. I dont see why it would be any different any where else is beyond me. You are just getting what is rightfully yours and hopefully leaving. Thats great you won your case agains that guy. I would have beat him to a pulp and probably would have had to pay him!
hounds... hare.... hunter.... bang... what gets better than that.
SMITH BROS. BEAGLES
KRIS SMITH
517-881-0353
SMITH BROS. BEAGLES
KRIS SMITH
517-881-0353
Doesn't it say in the game lawbook that you must make every effort to retrieve the game? Leaving a wounded animal to die and waste is a punishable offense in most states if caught. Wouldn't that fit the bill if you can't go on someone's property to retrieve it? Just food for thought...
Emery
Emery
Be ye kind one unto another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32
DR. PHILL !!! WHERE ARE YOU WHEN WE NEED YOU...lol
Seems I remember reading in one of the beagle magazines, a article by Mr. Fisher, that gave some good advice of gaining permission, common courtesies and proper hunting edict.
The world and manner of people has changed, not for the good. Long ago, people went through hard times and learned, helping people and having friends made life easier(and more enjoyable). Now, people have it better and see no reason to go out of their way to be courteous or help others.
This fence has two sides, don't expect to climb it, unless you build a bridge to cross on
...Patch
Seems I remember reading in one of the beagle magazines, a article by Mr. Fisher, that gave some good advice of gaining permission, common courtesies and proper hunting edict.
The world and manner of people has changed, not for the good. Long ago, people went through hard times and learned, helping people and having friends made life easier(and more enjoyable). Now, people have it better and see no reason to go out of their way to be courteous or help others.
This fence has two sides, don't expect to climb it, unless you build a bridge to cross on
...PatchActually WSRandy a person can shot and kill livestock that trespasses on another's property. I know you are ALL laughing right now and saying my livestock or MY DOG can't read so how do they know they can't enter one property or the other. This leads me to another story of experiance. This one is close to home and involved my uncle and his farmer neighbor. This farmer raised pigs and every year when my uncles garden started to produce this farmers sows would root through the fence and destroy his garden. My uncle went to the farmer, numerous times politely at first and told him of what was going on. After several attempts at trying to reason with the farmer and the farmer stating that he had no control over his pigs my uncle went to the prosecuting attorney and got advise on how to stop this. Much to his amazement he was told by the attorney to put "NO TRESPASSING" signs up all along the bounderies of his property and the farmers. He was told the next time the pigs get into his garden to visit the farmer one more time and show him that his property was posted with "NO TRESPASSING" signs. We're all ROTFLOAO about right now but what the prosecuting attorney told him next was shattering. After he posted his property and was assured that the farmer knew it was posted (that's why he went to talk to him again after posting it) it was perfectly within the LAW to shoot the farmers pigs. My uncle did shoot the farmers pigs and killed two sows and wounded several others before they got back onto the farmers property of which more of those died too. Yes, the farmer sued my uncle and it went to court. Virdict of the court "INNOCENT" of any wrong doing. The reason given under the LAW by the judge was that although the pigs could not read the farmer could and after he had been notified numerous times that his property (pigs) was causing a nuisance he elected to not remedy it and the death of his pigs was actually his fault. By the way, the farmer was awarded absolutely nothing not even any nuisance tax money, like they get if wild animals killed their stock.
http://www.flyergroup.com/story.asp?id=3290
Property owners vs. animal owners over rights
By Gus Pearcy
Staff Writer
DANVILLE, In. -- A group of dog owners and a few farmers from throughout Indiana gathered here Saturday to convince local lawmakers to reinstate a rule or pass a law that would allow animal owners to retrieve their animals that accidentally cross property lines.
Members of the Indiana Sportsman's Roundtable, the Indiana Beagler's Alliance, and the Central Indiana Coon Hunters Association told representatives Matt Whetstone (R-40) and Jeff Thompson (R-28) of problems with property owners when it was necessary to cross their property to get their animals. Some hunters have been shot at for crossing onto someone else's property, they claimed.
"A hunting dog has nothing on its mind but pursuing game," said Jack Hyden, president of the Indiana Beagler's Alliance. "You can't call it back. A coon doesn't read that 'no trespassing' sign, he goes through. The dog follows right behind him. The coon goes up a tree, the dog trees the coon, he's not going to leave that tree until the man comes to get him."
Current laws and rules do not allow animal owners to retrieve their animals or game if it should accidentally end up on someone else's property.
They said animal owners are forced to file a civil suit to get repayment or retrieve their animal if the property owner remains stubborn about allowing them on his or her property, and added that even law enforcement officers cannot force a property owner to let a hunter or farmer on his or her property.
The group seems to support a law that would force property owners to yield if the animal owner asked in the presence of a law enforcement officer.
The lack of retrieval rights in Indiana is of most concern to coon hunters, although it is an issue for farmers with wayfaring livestock and pet owners throughout the state. The influx of city dwellers moving to the rural areas and properties being carved up for smaller parcels has made the battle more prevalent, the group says.
Hyden said that some dog owners have more than $10,000 in their pets and many hunters said that the lack of a retrieval law hurts the state economically because humters won't travel to a state where they could lose their prize possessions.
Indiana Farm Bureau Government Relations Director Bob Kraft said the issue is truly a matter of rights: Property owners versus animal owners. He sad it is unfortunate that a law is needed.
"If people could always be reasonable, we probably wouldn't have to be here talking," he said. "But people aren't always reasonable."
Kraft told the group of 25 that Farm Bureau would most likely be against the retrieval rights because it would lead to an erosion of trespassing laws.
Whetstone told the group that the Legislative Services Agency is working on researching the issue. He said the political climate is up in the air with the election approaching and that the next meeting should be after the election in November.
20-25 states now have the same law as Indiana.......so folks, get ready.......it may soon be to a state near you! Even the politicians are afraid to react and the Farm Bureau is backing the law.
Our problem in Indiana stem from growth, plain and simple. 20 years ago as a 16 year old kid I could get on my 3 wheeler and go for miles and never leave the same 2 or 3 peoples land, all of which would let you hunt and encouraged it! As them landowners have started passing away, retiring, and just selling out you now may cross 100 yuppies 1-2 acre tracts to get a lost dog from the 40 acre patch your running! The younger generation is full of greed. On one hand I cant blame them.....on the other, I hate it....I think how much money does a person really need??? How can you blame a man for selling something for $10,000-$35,000 an acre that he paid $35 an acre for and made a living for a lifetime. Somehow I still manage to hold mixed feelings.....even if I cant justify it. I guess I just figure they should sell some of that for a profit........but heck why sell all 1500 acres when you could be wealthy selling 100 acres.
ANyhow.....enough rambling from me. Just wanted you all to see the article from the local paper about the law here.
Take Care,
Randy
Property owners vs. animal owners over rights
By Gus Pearcy
Staff Writer
DANVILLE, In. -- A group of dog owners and a few farmers from throughout Indiana gathered here Saturday to convince local lawmakers to reinstate a rule or pass a law that would allow animal owners to retrieve their animals that accidentally cross property lines.
Members of the Indiana Sportsman's Roundtable, the Indiana Beagler's Alliance, and the Central Indiana Coon Hunters Association told representatives Matt Whetstone (R-40) and Jeff Thompson (R-28) of problems with property owners when it was necessary to cross their property to get their animals. Some hunters have been shot at for crossing onto someone else's property, they claimed.
"A hunting dog has nothing on its mind but pursuing game," said Jack Hyden, president of the Indiana Beagler's Alliance. "You can't call it back. A coon doesn't read that 'no trespassing' sign, he goes through. The dog follows right behind him. The coon goes up a tree, the dog trees the coon, he's not going to leave that tree until the man comes to get him."
Current laws and rules do not allow animal owners to retrieve their animals or game if it should accidentally end up on someone else's property.
They said animal owners are forced to file a civil suit to get repayment or retrieve their animal if the property owner remains stubborn about allowing them on his or her property, and added that even law enforcement officers cannot force a property owner to let a hunter or farmer on his or her property.
The group seems to support a law that would force property owners to yield if the animal owner asked in the presence of a law enforcement officer.
The lack of retrieval rights in Indiana is of most concern to coon hunters, although it is an issue for farmers with wayfaring livestock and pet owners throughout the state. The influx of city dwellers moving to the rural areas and properties being carved up for smaller parcels has made the battle more prevalent, the group says.
Hyden said that some dog owners have more than $10,000 in their pets and many hunters said that the lack of a retrieval law hurts the state economically because humters won't travel to a state where they could lose their prize possessions.
Indiana Farm Bureau Government Relations Director Bob Kraft said the issue is truly a matter of rights: Property owners versus animal owners. He sad it is unfortunate that a law is needed.
"If people could always be reasonable, we probably wouldn't have to be here talking," he said. "But people aren't always reasonable."
Kraft told the group of 25 that Farm Bureau would most likely be against the retrieval rights because it would lead to an erosion of trespassing laws.
Whetstone told the group that the Legislative Services Agency is working on researching the issue. He said the political climate is up in the air with the election approaching and that the next meeting should be after the election in November.
20-25 states now have the same law as Indiana.......so folks, get ready.......it may soon be to a state near you! Even the politicians are afraid to react and the Farm Bureau is backing the law.
Our problem in Indiana stem from growth, plain and simple. 20 years ago as a 16 year old kid I could get on my 3 wheeler and go for miles and never leave the same 2 or 3 peoples land, all of which would let you hunt and encouraged it! As them landowners have started passing away, retiring, and just selling out you now may cross 100 yuppies 1-2 acre tracts to get a lost dog from the 40 acre patch your running! The younger generation is full of greed. On one hand I cant blame them.....on the other, I hate it....I think how much money does a person really need??? How can you blame a man for selling something for $10,000-$35,000 an acre that he paid $35 an acre for and made a living for a lifetime. Somehow I still manage to hold mixed feelings.....even if I cant justify it. I guess I just figure they should sell some of that for a profit........but heck why sell all 1500 acres when you could be wealthy selling 100 acres.
ANyhow.....enough rambling from me. Just wanted you all to see the article from the local paper about the law here.
Take Care,
Randy
This added another factor as to why I quit coon hunting. I hated it when my dogs went onto property that I had no permission to hunt and I had to go to the door and ask to go onto their property to retrieve my dogs. The first thing that at 9:00 p.m. or later they were pi$$ed that I bothered them and even worse was if the dogs treed close to their house or barn. Most of the time I was able to get permission to retrieve the dogs but I still hated to impose on folks especially if it was late. I went back to running beagles more often as they seemed to be easier to keep track of. I will also add that the Indiana hunting regulations are and have been quite clear as to the law on this subject and have had a paragraph addressing it ever since I can remember. I also know that many misinterpreted or confused it with the statement of it being illegal to kill or cripple any wild animal without making an effort to retrieve the animal and include it to your daily bag limit, asking permission to retrieve the game is making a reasonable effort whether granted or not. As for the DO NOT TRESPASS section it states: " It is illegal to hunt, trap,or retrieve game on private land without the consent of the landowner or tenant. Always ask permission BEFORE entering private property." Sorry if I've stepped all over this thread but I thought this forum was for sharing information and this one is very important, especially for those who may come from out of the state to hunt in Indiana. Heck, I've lived and hunted here all my life and would NOT have know had I not been involved in some atlercations. I was also told that ignorance of the law was NO excuss. I will quit rambling on this and hope that some have learned something.
I know one thing for sure whoever this guy was that shot the red deer I sure wouldn't rabbit hunt with him. Imagine this. You run into someone while out gunnung over your dogs. You ask him how have you done today. He replies "I've got two rabbits maybe three not real sure what this last one was. Here maybe you can tell me." He pulls two plump rabbits and a beagle out of his game bag. You just shake your head and walk off. Then as your walking away he says " By the way if you see a dog let me know I can't find ole luke." LOL.
This is a true little story....a few years back a friend of mine and his brother were out gun hunting the first weekend of deer season on state land. They had hunted until around noon and was walking out to the truck when they seen this other guy walking out of the woods....my buddy Steve asked him if he had been doing any good and the guy replied......"Oh, not really just a few brush pops" my friends thought the guy meant "brush pops" from deer being spooked and running off. They responded that they had spooked a couple as well and seen several deer that were spooked.
Then the guy responds..."Well I am sure I spooked the ones in the brush but I checked for blood and didnt find any sign of hitting them" my buddy was then confused and angry, he thought the guy now meant he was shooting into brush at what he thought was deer without ever seeing what was there, so he asked the guy what he meant by "brush pops" and sure enough, the guy said flat out "When I hear a deer in a thicket or cornfield and just shoot at the sound, I have taken deer that way before" my buddy now very angry asks the guy how he dont know its a person and the guy said because hunters wear orange....my buddy was pissed! He said it was all he and his brother could do to walk away without beating this guy down. They told the guy how stupid and dangerous that was. They promptly notified the CO and told him what the guy had said and gave his license plate number.
Honest truth!
Then the guy responds..."Well I am sure I spooked the ones in the brush but I checked for blood and didnt find any sign of hitting them" my buddy was then confused and angry, he thought the guy now meant he was shooting into brush at what he thought was deer without ever seeing what was there, so he asked the guy what he meant by "brush pops" and sure enough, the guy said flat out "When I hear a deer in a thicket or cornfield and just shoot at the sound, I have taken deer that way before" my buddy now very angry asks the guy how he dont know its a person and the guy said because hunters wear orange....my buddy was pissed! He said it was all he and his brother could do to walk away without beating this guy down. They told the guy how stupid and dangerous that was. They promptly notified the CO and told him what the guy had said and gave his license plate number.
Honest truth!
Dang Now thats somethin to worry about!!! Well All I can Say to that Is good thing he didnt admit it around me and Some of my Buddys! We made a guy walk back to his rig in Just his Drawers one time just for lookin at one of our Huntin partners Through his Scope with a loaded Rifle 
From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be
TC, AFter I posted that it got me to thinking how many incidents happen like that every year, I did a google search of it and here was a couple of examples I found, oddly enough on an Oregon DFW website.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/outdoor_skil ... 9.html#vos
99/7 Clackamas County
The shooter and the victim were members of the same hunting party participating in the High Cascade deer hunt near Timothy Lake. The shooter heard a movement, thought he saw antlers and an ear and shot twice into the brush below. The first shot hit one hunter's rifle stock and the second hit his son (age 12) in the chest. The shooter was using a bolt action rifle with open sights. Victim was wearing blue and green clothing with no visible blaze orange. FATAL
99/8 Klamath County
The shooter was hunting in moderately dense timber when he thought he saw antlers about 60 yards away. He crouched down and saw what he believed to be the brown legs of a deer. He shot into the brush and his bullet went through the scope of the victim's rifle into his chest. The shooter was using a bolt action 300 Win Mag with a 6 x scope. The victim was wearing brown pants and a plaid shirt with no blaze orange. FATAL
I cant imagine someone shooting at something they couldnt see clearly.......wearing orange or not, I dont think there is an excuse for mistaking a human for an animal.
http://www.dfw.state.or.us/outdoor_skil ... 9.html#vos
99/7 Clackamas County
The shooter and the victim were members of the same hunting party participating in the High Cascade deer hunt near Timothy Lake. The shooter heard a movement, thought he saw antlers and an ear and shot twice into the brush below. The first shot hit one hunter's rifle stock and the second hit his son (age 12) in the chest. The shooter was using a bolt action rifle with open sights. Victim was wearing blue and green clothing with no visible blaze orange. FATAL
99/8 Klamath County
The shooter was hunting in moderately dense timber when he thought he saw antlers about 60 yards away. He crouched down and saw what he believed to be the brown legs of a deer. He shot into the brush and his bullet went through the scope of the victim's rifle into his chest. The shooter was using a bolt action 300 Win Mag with a 6 x scope. The victim was wearing brown pants and a plaid shirt with no blaze orange. FATAL
I cant imagine someone shooting at something they couldnt see clearly.......wearing orange or not, I dont think there is an excuse for mistaking a human for an animal.