Pup from a "good Producing" brood female or Top female??

[bfoster]

Not sure I can add much to this post that hasn't already been addressed, but here’s my input anyway.

Why are you making this breeding, is the question that must be asked first.

If you’re breeding for 1 generation, the resulting offspring only, then the use of a top producing brood female maybe exactly what you need to use. Her field ability doesn't matter as much as her ability to produce. If the female is known to produce exactly what you are after then there you go. That’s all any of us can hope for when we breed… an above average chance of getting what we want!

Now, If you are breeding for more than just 1 generation and will be looking to breed the offspring later on… well then you’ve got more to look at than just the single individuals producing power. In that case I’m with you. I want a pedigree loaded with great hounds that produced great hounds... to my liking of course.

[steveh]

I can tell you that my best 2 dogs ever were just $10 backyard pups from run of the mill grade beagles. These 2 dogs were bullet proof and unbeatable on the ground. No dna, papers or anything for bragging rights per say but a sack of dead rabbits at the end of the day. Now flash forward 25 years, a bloodline we are happy with that we now supply ourselves with our next generation of dogs through our own breeding. I have a female now that I plan on putting in trials to see how she does. At 10 mo old she is on her way to being in my top 3.

The whole point here is, you can check dna, papers, 8 generations back. I believe that in every litter you have your duds, the good ones and mabey 1 great one. I used to breed beagles to sell the pups. After all it is fun. But now, we only breed when we want to make a cross and keep most of the pups and pick out the best. Can you try and stack the deck in your favor with selective breeding, I think so. But there will still be duds, and good ones and every now and then a great one.

[bill (flint river )]

any one ever here of bright spirted buddie....... he is the sire on lake ogamaw casey and a few other outstanding hounds, guess what he was a house dog. somebody took a chance on this male because of his little mates were true rabbit dogs. know some average brood bitch might only be that because she wasn't run enough or didn't get a fair shake at it when she was a pup.

[eddywilliams]

I got several with Buddy in him going back to Paycheck,gonna be line breeding this some .The schnapps stuf was some hard hitting sobs

[bill (flint river )]

buddie goes back to schnapps on the bottom. I think Larson johnny cash was a litter mate. some dogs are built and bread to the gills, but never get a fair shack at it.

[S.R.Patch]

An old saying goes, Within every hound there are two,...the one you see...and the one you breed that carries all the genetic dna to be passed to the pups from the ancestors. Another old adage says, " the performer and the producer are rarely one an the same", meaning best to best doesn't work without using all the tools and test evaluations to prove out success. Family breeding ie...line/inbreeding to gain consistency and dominance in quality produced is what gives high percentages in breeding. The ole bat once said, "I'd rather breed from one of average ability with a strong family of producers in the pedigree, than one of superior ability with nothing in the pedigree to back it up"...

[Shady Grove Beagles]

If you want to breed and have got the itch------just remember it starts with the bitch!

[BCBeagles]

I want both, top hounds and top pedigrees(not saying I have them, but mine suit my desires). I am no expert, but I am sure going to breed the best I can get from the line that suits me best as opposed to taking an ole average dog from a good family. You will sort thru a lot more that way, in my opinion, and I know I will just keep sorting by breeding best to best as well. I won't keep those dogs(average field operators), let alone breed them. Been there and done that, did not see any better pups than the average parents I started with.

They were linebred up from decent hounds, I guess just not decent enough. Opinions vary GREATLY what is breeding stock that is for sure!!!

Good running to all!!!

[Pine Lakes]

But who is the guy who says, "this average female will be the foundation for my hounds for years to come??" What "true" breeder does that?

I AM NOT A TRUE BREEDER by any stretch. Just asking what prompts folks to do this?

Noone has ever said "this average female will be the foundation for my hounds for years to come" without seeing what she reproduces first. It is just as ignorant to say "this field champion bitch is going to be the foundation of my kennel for years to come" without knowing what she is capable of reproducing. You claim you will not breed an average female, but I guarantee you there are some average females in your dogs ancestory. Here's a great example, Shaw's Oakwood Callie produced several FC's from different crosses. She was not very good at all. I'll say less than average, but she reproduced as well as any female you or I can think of and so has her offspring. There is no exact science in this and many have tried. High Peak Babblinb Pebbles, ever heard of her? Hale's Liz? Down's Brandy? Camp Creek Gertrude? Hornbills Awful Bawlin Shorty? Maravic's Blue Girl? Well's Woods Blue Sue? Townline's Jerry-Jo's Agate? White Oak Creek Jammin Jessie? Nehi Dutchess? Woodeye's Turbo Girl? Ferguson's Snowshoe Penny? I could sit here for an hour listing females that were just solid/unspectacular dogs that produced they type of hounds we all want. Like I've said many times, if you want to be a successful breeder put lots of litters on the ground, run hard and cull harder. There is no shortcut unless you get lucky and land a good reproducing female like Shaw's Oakwood Callie.

I've only covered half of the equation here. Sometimes certain crosses work while others fail. Sometimes the same cross doesn't work the second time around. Talk to John Dewyse about that. There is no doubt that certain hounds(male and female) are good reproducers. There are certain crosses that work and that sire and dame do not produce outside of that cross. My point is folks breed what they think will work. Sometimes they experiment. Sometimes that's all they have to breed. No matter the angle, culling is the only means to have a kennel full of good dogs bred at home.

[BCBeagles]

You kind of proved my point. I would love to know the dogs that these successfull breeders really wanted to the basis for there kennels. Sounds like none of the ones you mentioned were probably first choice. I am not being a smart a$$, but why would anyone not breed around a top performer and a good bred hound? Yes, yes, I know, the great ones don't reproduce, but how do you know if you breed them once and move onto average female? Did they take there best hound, that super balanced FC to multiple studs or just one cross and onto the average one that could reproduce a better hound than thereself.

Another thing I find intriguing is that when these average hounds produce a little better hound or even a good bit better hound look what they are compared against. Comparing slightly better or a little better is an improvement, but it is an improvement over AVERAGE, not your top skill set. I would love to the find the balanced(FC if you like titles), can't leave them at home female and a reproducer of BETTER hounds than she is! The goal we are all after for sure!!!!

I agree 100% on multiple litters from a limited number of qualified studs that fit your needs increases your chances of improving significantly.

I am in NO WAY saying it will work for my crapeaters. LOL. Good points and no disrespect intended. I think out loud too much!

Thanks for the input!!

[Pine Lakes]

No offense taken and hopefully none given. I didn't just fall off the "turn up" truck and have had the privaledge to talk to many successful houndsmen. Guys like Don Clark, Gene Byers, John Dewyse, Joe Corullo(one of my favorites), Don Hoog, John Monkman, and a host of others that have had more failures than successes. It's the nature of the beast, if you will, and it levels the playing field to some extent allowing little guys like you and me to get lucky occasionally. Good luck with your program.

[bill (flint river )]

look at FC juel kool from don hoog, she never reproduced any thing. and she was bread to some of the best males in the country.

[wes smith]

Re: Pup from a "good Producing" brood female or Top female??
by bill (flint river ) » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:08 pm
look at FC kool juel from don hoog, she never reproduced any thing. and she was bread to some of the best males in the country.

I have a rabbit dog deluxe off of her and trails.

[bill (flint river )]

u are the first person i have ever heard like a pup from her, i had 3 out of her and they were useless.

[wes smith]

It's all a gamble! if was easy we wouldn't even talking about it!!!