A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Laneline wrote:Each parent makes a 50% contribution. As the parents in any generation always contribute 50% of their genes to their pups, 25% will come from each grandparent, 12.5% from each great-grandparent, and so on. Once we are past the parents, we are dealing in what “might” be, not what “will” be.
When a sire passes a pup a set of his chromosomes, they will include a selection of ones inherited from both his parents, but there is no guarantee that the selection or the % of genes from each parent will be exactly equal. There is even a small chance {very small} that he will pass on those from only one of his parents, maybe the side that you don’t want. It also blows the theory out of the water, to go breed to the “littermate” of that FC male and hope to expect the same results as from the FC. They more than likely received, have and will throw totally different genes.
The contribution in a 10 gen. Pedigree from each of the 1024 ancestors would amount to less than 0.1%. But in the pedigree of the average beagle, there are rarely more than 100-200 different names and some appear 50 times or more. Because “line-breeding” narrows the gene pool and creates a “domino effect” in the gene pool, these are the significant ancestors that make the major genetic contributions. If you look at the pedigrees of 2 dogs and in 4 generations they do not have 1 dog in common, we “lable” breeding the two of them together is an “out-cross”, but that can be misleading, as far as meshing traits together. These 2 dogs may be more alike {characteristically} to each other then they are to their own littermates, because of what they are both overwhelmed with 8 & 9 generations back and how the current dogs “evolved”.
Example: My friend Larry Perry liked a dog from years ago called Mt. Zion Pete. For years he has concentrated on dogs that were heavy “Pete” bred. Dingus Macrae blood being one of the major dogs he used. But he also has and still uses other dogs that are heavy concentrated in “Pete” blood. Now Pete is in most pedigrees 7, 8, 9 or more generations back. But Larry has dogs that have “Pete” in their pedigrees over 80 times. Is he expecting to “clone” Mt Zion Pete? Absolutely not, but by narrowing down the gene selection to be passed down you can manipulate of what “might” be and increase the %’s of getting what genes and characteristics you “hope” to get from and how the selected dogs evolved {in common} from the “Pete” blood.
The last two paragraphs are very powerful in there statements. The first is breeding to a littermate of a FC and not getting the same traits as the FC. Question is "Is the FC producing the same traits that it got or is one of the littermates passing on those traits?" Ever see a kid that looks more like it Uncle then its own dad? This is the reason that I like the breeding of Uncle/Niece or Aunt/Nephew! Trying to make sure you will get some of the traits that you are looking for.
The last paragraph about the same hounds in 7,8,9 generations back is also great, but saying that your hound is "blank bred" or "line bre" is over used (not in your case with 80 plus crosses of Pete) . What most people should say is "name of stud" is in its pedigree, or they should say that this FC or that FTCH is in its pedigree.
Below is just a little research done of some "big name studs" that are used everyday on this board and the % of FC or FTCH they have produced. Now before anyone makes a big deal out of this I got my information from the beaglepedigree site. I know there are more hounds out of the studs but are not on beaglepediree.com.
Jack of All Trades
53 times
137 pups
27 FC/FTCH
19.7%
Ranger Dan
34 times
164 pups
21 FC/FTCH
12.8%
Heli-Prop
74 times
172 pups
17 FC/FTCH
9.8%
Ali-Baba
85 times
218 pups
29 FC/FTCH
13.3%
Copper Boy
20 times
54 pups
5 FC/FTCH
9.2%
Blue Ninja
32 times
124 pups
17 FC/FTCH
13.7%
McBrides fly on snowflake
7 times
13 pups
6 FC/FTCH
46.1%
Wally of Floline
6 times
7 pups
5 FC/FTCH
71.4%
All this info does is show that alot of people are just interested in the title and not the breeding. Lets look at the most common name "Jack of All Trades" he has 137 pups on the ground 27 made a title but 110 did not and who is to say that the best Jack of All Trades offspring are not the title hounds but ones that went to gun hunters. What hounds out of him did great in the trials but never produced anything and what hounds that never seen a trial produce great hounds. So sometimes it is not a bad thing to breed to a non title great hound and or/an uncle or even for that matter a third removed aunt.................lol
Bowling's Old Blood Beagles BOBB's Line of Hounds Selective breeding of Old Branko "NINJA"/Ranger Dan = BOBB's Line
I completely agee offspring can get one or two traits from many generations back. Simple statistics explain this. However I am sceptical a hound could get several traits from one hound deep in its pedigree when not linebred. Once again, statistics explain the possibility. How many other traits did those red pups exhibit from the red hound in their pedigree?
Boilermaker... Unfortunately those red dogs in 5 generations ran before my time. Thus I honestly couldn't tell you what they contributed other than their color. I'm sure there's some dominate and recessive genetic stuff going on somewhere, but that stuff is over this country boy's head.
Jamie D. Rice FUZZ'S BEAGLES "I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." - Philippians 4:13 KJV
Wish I understood genetics like some of yall. I read the posts a few times. All I can talk about is more experience than science. If you take a dog that has heavy Sampson breeding, it has a lot of his traits. If you have more shots of dog or his offspring it increases the influence he has. 80 shots of Pete (I like the sound of that) is good, but how many generations back? 10? 12? Pete has been gone for a long time. I don't doubt he has affect on dogs today, but as far as expecting a dog like him, it's not gonna happen today. If 5 generations has 11 shots of Spur, and 6 generations has 16, then how much affect does he have on the cross? You can't say none just because he is 3rd generation back, because dogs bred from him are awful similar even with different parents and grand parents. I think if we keep the bloodline strongly line bred in our pedigrees, we keep those traits we desire and can say it is bred "FlavaFlave".
Also, thanks for the good topics in 90 degree heat lol.
Mike Woods, Co-owner of Mtn Way Kennel
Visit me at http://www.mtnwaykennel.com
Come run with me in Saltville, Va!
Call anytime! 276-492-0852
Tiny--thats a good post using common sense but even in a line bred dog the dogs closest to the eventual offspring will have more influence than the dog in the 5th gen even though if a person does their job right the traits will be similar...
but in 5 generations you can breed out or in ANY quality you want or dont want in a hound so its better to look at parents and grandparents for influence because a lot of this is guess work and we only get to see the results...
God isn't real, Beer is good and people are crazy, there I fixed it.
I thought I had a throwback to ole Neuralgia this last litter.
The little feller had what seemed liked a squinty slant eye on one side of his head, and was also hampered with what sounded like fluid in his lung, which garnered him the name of "Rattler" while it lasted.
As it turned out, I got to messing with the eye and found out his eyelid was turned in and the poor litter feller was squinting because his eyelash was irritating his eye. I got the tweezers and got hold of the eyelash and pulled to turn it out right again and the eye has cleared and shines like a new penny now and is wide open. Really hated to loose my hope of having a Neuralgia of my own, but the pup is happier without the irritation and looks much better.
Just the way it goes I guess...
Let me ask this one. I have some females that are linebred sock it to me.12 crosses on bottom side and 1 cross on top side on female #1. Female #2 is all line breed on top and bottom. Female# 3 is Reggie on top and Linebreed on bottom. Now Sock it to me is 4 to 6 gen back, but these dogs all run the same. They act the same. They have fast foot, big nose, run a clean line and don't like deer. In the kennel they are quiet and all are Black white and tan. Now can you go back past 3 generations. I believe so. If not I stand corrected.These females are all the same in style, nose, foot speed and hunt. I am thinking of crossing them with IFC Beaver Creek Blue Max. How would this cross, or should I cross back to Sock It To Me?
RC Johnson's Rock'em Sugar
RC Johnson's Rock'em Jack
RC Copelands Super Dooper
GBC RC Peters P&P Jake
Johnson's Hydro
RC Johnson's Rock'em Voodoo
14 others in the making
The older the dogs being bred the further back in lineage the influence will show up.
Go back 8 generations and see how those dogs in the pedigree ran.
Much easier to know if they were AKC registered field trial dogs.
The AKC dogs winning styles have changed about every 3 generations to fit the trials requirements up until today.
Folks wonder where some of the traits in their pups came from that are so different from the dam and sire as they knew the dogs personally ( and that is very rare since most know and breed because of their winnings and titles instead of the dogs themselves) for the last 3 generations and these pups are not like any of them. Why? I bet it was an old dog bred and an old dog doing the breeding.
Its much easier to see in color and conformation being like a dog or dogs of old, but its inside the mind and characterization just as much.
