Beagle takes 3rd in Hound Div at Westminster

[buckridge]

Yes, most start at $600.00, pet quality starts around $400.00
we just had a litter of 7, 5 boys and 2 girls.

The basset in the show is from Chicago, and is the number one in the nation, the handler is very well know and gets paid big bucks to handle the dog along with a motor home.

Jim

[DDWBeagles]

Wow, Patch, you laid a whopping on me didn't you? Anyway, I have read your post for years now and acknowledge that I am conversing with a true houndsman. I respect your opinion, even if it differs from my own. I agree with your theory that hunt disapates without use, but when I acquired show stock as pups, I immediately put them in the field and they haven't looked back. The comments I made in my post hold true, but it's not worth fighting over. So, I hear ya loud and clear and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

BUCKRIDGE, can you send me a PM with the pedigree info on your pups. I am looking for another show quality tircolor (sex unimportant). Thanks

[S.R.Patch]

DDW,
The whopping was not for you but for the misconception that breeding the show/hunt will give the whole package in the pups. This to me, is taking the loong way around to the gate. There are people that take these things at face value and run with them. If your doing this, you better know what your doing. Treat the show hound that same as you would anyother stud you were considering breeding. See them hunt, find out if there siblings hunt, did there sire/dam hunt, and more important, do they produce offspring that hunt?? One shower does not a wet Spring make.
Read Tom Dornin"s book on breeding beagles, he will give you what your up against and the odds you face. He will also tell you how "lucky" he was.
"Hunt doesn't disapate without use", it is "lost" without being tested and selected for, as is any traite. The same "looks" that are selected for on the bench, are the same as the traits we look for in the field, only they don't show themselves on the bench, they must be observed in the field. It would be like me picking the best show hound with my eyes closed and my hands in my pockets, a total guessing game and no doubt the show hound would suffer for it.
In breeding, we take the best we have and breed it to one with like ability but also having strength in an area we may be lacking(odds & percentages) and has proved to put it in their pups. Tom said, he went to show blood for conformation, because he could find none from hunting hounds, I fail to see where this is true today. He also said, he didn't known about the LPH hounds at the time.
I can tell you there is a strict rule in the Association of Masters of Harriers and Beagles in the UK, that prohibits the breeding of Pack hounds with the Kennel Club(Show hounds), for guarding against soft or nonhunting blood being introduced into the Packs. There just fear is not what may come on the first cross, but what they will live with in the future.
You may be right, for "business", this new fad may bring in the bucks. People love titles and surely having a pedigree full of mixed show X hunting champeens would impress many. But, we must live with what we create and this is another stumbling block being created, in my opinion. So, we will have to agree to disagree...
Best of luck to you...Patch

[TC]

Well patch I kinda have to agree with DDW on this one. I have been successfully breeding Show/field dogs for awhile now and think that I have done my part to better the breed. I am along way from reaching my goal but I am on my way!! I take flack all the time from BOTH sides from the show folks for runnin my dogs in the field and from the field guys for havin pretty dogs. Well my Dogs speak for themselves they may not be the best hunters in the world yet but they are coming along. This is an area where I have a real problem.
WHY are their show dogs and field dogs shouldn’t they be one and the same? BEAGLES Like I say From Show to Field from Field to show that’s the way it should be. If this is the millstone that I must bear then I will gladly bear it. Why do you have a problem with the show dogs being bred to field hounds? We take nothing away from you! We breed to enhance the qualities that make the Beagle better the ability and the DESIRE to hunt and breed in the best Conformation that is available to enhance out Dogs finer points to bring out the Desire and the nose to Strive for the total dog!! Conformation definitely helps in the field I have seen it less tearing of the tails do to shoulder lay fewer problems with joint failure because of proper angulations Ect. Again I ask What problem do you have with this!! How is this Hurting the breed??
I to have read your post and have found your information and knowledge to be outstanding its just little things like this that make me wonder.
TC
Thornridge Beagles
Salem, Or

http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/

[VABEAGLER]

A very good friend of mine and someone i run with on occasion has been breeding show and hunting stock for years and in fact the foundation of her dogs is show stock. This lady has been very successful in beagling and from personal experience from both running with and owning dogs from her kennel they are aslo rabbit dogs.

If many of you will go back through old pedigrees and pedigrees from today you will see the "Bedlam" Name bred by Many Bobbit of Virginia she trials formal pack and has a mix of both show and field breeding. Her dogs both run good and look good.

I dont' believe show breeding is the absolute answer to conformation but if bred correctly to hunting stock you sure get good looking beagles that hunt.

Brian

[Guest]

Also there are several show lines that are well known for their hunting ability (i.e. Echorun, Strongbow and even Starbuck)[/quote]

I think the myth that a show bred hound can't run a rabbit is just that, a MYTH! Especially when you consider Labnur kennels, they've produced the top winning show beagle of all time (Ch Lanburs Miss Fleetwood) and do pretty much set the standard for the "show" lines.
Also wanted to add that I've heard many beaglers have had luck with dogs out of Ch Shaw's Spirit of the Chase, he supposedly produces excellent huntin' dawgs. Imagine that

[Boomer]

I'm happy to see such a courteous discussion on this subject. I expected to see a lot of mud-slinging.

It's hard to tell how much of a hunting dog most show dogs are. But they are trained to act in the ring as they do, and when they are outside the ring, they generally act like beagles. If the hunt were bred out of them, there would be a lot more people interested in showing beagles. They're too much of a pain for most show people because of the beagle instincts.

This is the first time I've heard about hunting dogs out of Lanbur. I wouldn't go so far as to say that they "do pretty much set the standard for 'show' lines." Many of the show people I know strongly disagree with that.

Strongbow and Echo Run have a proven track record in the show ring and in the field, and I think the breeders themselves do hunt regularly. If I wanted a blend of conformation and hunting ability, that's where I'd look.

In an ideal world, there would be no difference between field beagles and show beagles. You'd just have varying degrees of hunting ability and conformation.

[DDWBeagles]

Forgive me "Guest" for not mentioning Lanbur as I am favorably biased towards that kennel. I purchased my female from Jon last year. I made two trips to his kennel and have nothing but good stuff to say about him and his operation. She (the dog) is barely over a year old, displays outstanding hunt and search, but is still a little loose/fast on the line. That will get better with experience. Anyway, I agree, this is a good subject and all parties seem to be handling it well. Over the years, I have grown to admire S.R. Patch and his beagling knowledge, so his opinions carry weight too, but like TC said, if this is the mill stone I must carry, than I do so willingly. Boomer also said it well, "In an ideal world, there would be no difference between field beagles and show beagles." I'm a typical blue collar Joe, but often blame the demise of this breed on the backyard breedings. Also, it was our group that developed and for decades embrased the traditional brace hound, wasn't it? (YIKES) What natural instinct can we blame that on? Anyway, whether it's a fad or not, it seems to be catching on and I for one, am happy to see some "decent looking" beagles starting to show up at the trials. See ya at the Triple Crown.......

[samlyn0001]

TC
Beautiful!!! Love the hound in the pic of all together now. Is the one on the left in the back. I love that blockey head!
Lyn

[TC]

Lyn Thanks
That would be Rosies Keepsake Wishbone, AKA Big Boy He is a great dog was doing very well in AKC then oh went over 15" He is now my wife’s obedience dog and doing well.
I think this discussion has gone very well! A lot better than it would have even 5 years back but we still have along way to go not with just the true houndsman either I encounter opposition from the show folks as well. That is one of my main goals in educating as many as possible that there are not two different breeds of Beagle the hunting hound and the show hound they are one and the same!!! More and more of the field folk I have met are more receptive to the idea of adding more conformation to their lines than show adding hunt! Here we strive for both and will continue to do so by the way thanks for looking at our site.
TC
Thornridge Beagles
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/

[Emery]

I would think that given opportunity to hunt, show hounds should be able to hunt just fine. I do have one question though... If you hunt your show beagle and it gets all scarred up and the ears scratched and maybe a little torn, do they get points taken away for these "battle scars" or do the judges just take into consideration that you are hunting them as well as showing them?

Thanks,
Emery

[Emery]

I would think that given opportunity to hunt, show hounds should be able to hunt just fine. I do have one question though... If you hunt your show beagle and it gets all scarred up and the ears scratched and maybe a little torn, do they get points taken away for these "battle scars" or do the judges just take into consideration that you are hunting them as well as showing them?

Thanks,
Emery

[Boomer]

Technically, as long as the scars don't affect the standard, they should be ok, but there's no telling how it might influence a judge consciously or unconsciously. Maybe someone who does both will chime-in. My guess is people who do both cut-down on the hunting when they're showing frequently to give them some time to heal.

Someone showed me some photos once of beagles to show the influence of different things on appearance. The photos were identical, except that small modifications in color were made using a computer. For instance, mascara around the eyes was added or removed in one photo, brown was added to a white muzzle in another, white was added to a black neck in another, etc. These small changes made a dramatic impact on how the dog looked in terms of thickness, balance, etc. So maybe scarring could do the same, even if the judge isn't looking for it.

[TC]

Boomer you are correct in the technicality of scaring of the beagle it is not suposed to be a fault in a dog for field scars, and as for the chalking of the dogs it is a excepted practice in the AKC conformation events, but is not supose to happen. As participants of AKC and UKC field and conformation this is one thing we do not do to our hounds. AKC over looks the chalking of the dogs where in UKC they do not overlook chalking and heavy grooming of the dogs.

It has been our experience that UKC is very meticulous in their evaluations of the hounds. They will do a thorough hands on touching of the dog, look at his teeth count them, look at his structure as he is stacked on and off the table. They get down on their knees and watch the dog gait the entire time you are in the ring all the way around the ring they will follow you around the ring watching your dog gait. They will look at your dogs expression as the dog approaches the judge as well. I am very impressed with the judges at the UKC events. I have never been faulted for scratches on my hounds in their events. In our experience also hounds have ran in a UKC field event on Saturday and shown at an AKC conformation event on the following Sunday and received points. I do not find as thorough evaluation at the AKC events, but this does not mean that the field dog is any lesser of a dog than the show. I feel that this means that the folks that participate in fielding their dogs need to stand up and show their dogs and say I am representing my breed, this is a beagle, my beagle can hunt and show as well.

A lot of times it is that if you do want to show your dog as well as run them in the field care and close observation of the hounds needs to be done, for example you wouldn't want to show a lame dog or a dog that does have an open wound. Not only is this where you could be excused from the ring but your dog may catch some type of infection from strange dogs at the show so I can see this as a good thing.

Of course grooming your dog does make a difference in the outcome of the conformation event. Nails should be done the teeth should be clean the coat should be clean straggly hair needs to be trimmed the ears need to be clean and hair in them trimmed. The hair around the feet need to be trimmed as well. If you show in the AKC conformation event you will also want to trim the wiskers off the face it gives your dog a softer look to his head which is the first and last thing the judge looks at usually along with the gait of the dog. A good grooming job on your hound shows you care about your dog and makes your dog presentable.

Be proud of your breed and the abilities your dog has! Get those field dogs out there and Make those judges look at those field dogs. I have seen a lot of field dogs that are just as nice if not nicer than some of the show dogs currently representing the Breed. One of the main things a field dog has going for him is his muscle tone. If you look on sites that are just show dogs this is one thing I notice that the dogs don't have like the field dogs.

I do agree that the breed Beagle should have all the qualities they were bred for, the hunt. For a dog to hunt and have the stamina they do need to have appropriate body structure to maintaine the stamina it takes to bring home the bacon. This is why they have the conformation in the breed, it was not to separate the lap dog type to the working dog type. Conformation was designed to make a standard that all beaglers should strive to obtain when breeding their dogs to give them the body structure to do the job the beagle was bred for, hunting.

TC
Thornridge Beagles
http://home.earthlink.net/~tjcrewse/

[Gus]

I would like know if any show/hunting Beagle owners have ran their hounds in any kind of endurance race. A few years back a hunting buddy and I were fascinated with the idea of improving the breed. We purchased several show bred hounds. As you have indicated these hounds were very good hunters. One was the best varment dog I think I have ever seen. When hunting she would investigate every hole she came accross and the brush did not get too thick for her. She was as good at jumping rabbits as any dog I have ever seen. She hated almost everything with fur. However, she had no stamina. She would jump a rabbit and in an hour she was exhausted. She would quit. A well built hound should have more stamina because of the efficiency at which it moves. This was not the case however. None of the show bred hounds could last more than a couple hours in the field.