Hare hound vs. Cottontail hound

SMITTY1233 · Post by **SMITTY1233** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:55 pm

I also live in MI and run cottontail and hare. I run cottontail more than hare and have two young dogs. I have noticed that they havent figure out how to reach a little more for a hare. There is definately a difference. My dogs are come back to point of loss and it sometimes makes for a long race on hare. I like this because it makes for a smoother run on cottontail. I think that with age and more running on hare they will learn they have to reach out a little more which is fine with me, I want a hard driving race with as few losses as possible. None is the best

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:05 pm

KanesIrish wrote:If the rabbit is lost for a moment at point A and two dogs are running, what is more impressive the hound that stays and picks up the line at point A or the rabbit the picks it up at point B.

That depends on how far from point A point B is. That's why I asked you to define it. I wouldn't condone a dog consistently gambling out 20 or 30 yards on a check, but if a one dog keeps hitting it 5 or 10 yards in front or left or right of the loss and keeps the run's forward progress going, then I find that dog more impressive because it's getting more done. Some dogs have a knack and some don't. You can kill rabbits with all different kinds of dogs; it's all in what we prefer, I guess.

By the way, I've seen plenty of dogs overrun rabbits by 100 yards at the Beagle club and to make it worse many of them have kept on barking.

KanesIrish · Post by **KanesIrish** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 2:31 pm

Chris,
I've judged over 100 field trials, mostly large pack, I would love you to show me a hound over run the length of a football field. I've been at this game since I could barely walk. And I think I've seen it once, and it was a big name stud dog, and I didn't see the rabbit so I put it in my book as a question mark. My friend went to another area to judge a field trial and he said most definitely they were overrunning by that much. Most people in this sport like to exaggerate distances.

Like you said, reaching 30, 40, 50 yards should not be condoned or tolerated. I was at a trial in New York two summers ago and saw a hound consisently pick the track up at least 30 yards away from the rest of the pack. This hound was picked up that day, but the sad thing is he's gone on to finish for International.

And yes, I do like a hound that goes for it up front, like 5 to 10 feet ahead of the rest and gets it and goes with it, how ever that is what I would like to think is in the check area. But at the same time I like to see a hound get it from where they lost it. I saw this at Merrimack's SPO-H trial in the big male class. One dog stuck and picked a check while the others all left, and he dug and dug until it was up and going. Its nice to see hound work, its also nice to see bulldog running, like you said, you can shoot rabbits with all different styles of dogs-but its what you prefer.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:35 pm

Kane, most of the LP and Midwest trials I have been too promote the dogs that reach. I dont think its intentional but with limited ability to see in the pines or cedars they frequently are charging to the front and see the lead dogs, many of which reached to get to the front. I had a really nice female I trialed, and was constantly told by judges that she was always playing catch up. I could see and hear her getting check after check but she got them in close. Some of the trial wise dogs immediately jump 20 yards in front and drive off. I sold her to a friend who hunts and she is a special one. I now own 1 that will reach 10 yards in front of loss and am having much better luck in trials. I can see the benefit of both, but if you allow a little reach you better be prepared to draw a limit or your race will get out of hand....unfortunately i hear handlers say "if I dont get caught I will win" it would be nice if owners had more integrity than to do this but too many would rather win. Awful hard for two judges in 4-5 hours to sort out 40+ hounds when half are reaching, some farther than others.

KanesIrish · Post by **KanesIrish** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:46 pm

Mybeagles,
from what I have learned is not to keep a dog that reaches in a pack. It effects the other hounds and the running. The hounds that are doing the majority of the work in the pack are playing catch up a lot of the time and therefore like you said are not getting looked at.

This is a classic example of different associations liking different types of hounds.

I'm always gonna try to stick to my ideas about reaching...and not pick up a hound for reaching unless somebody is filling in the line behind it.

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:25 pm

I run and judge in the Mid-West and dogs that reach too much will get picked up. When a dog is on the front driving and runs out of scent , he better snap back as quick as possible and try to locate the turn or, believe me, he will get strung out because the other hounds are just waiting for his fumble so they can grab the lead. The Mid-West is better about promoting a true rabbit hound now than I've ever seen in the last 10 years. People that bad mouth the Mid-West , probably haven't been to many licensed trials lately.
As far as hare vs. cottontail dogs, most of my hounds come from hare hound breeding and they do just fine on cottontail. They stay close in the check, have true mouths and plenty of speed and control.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 7:31 pm

I've seen prominent beaglers and beagles from LPH come to the mid-west and the hounds not be in the same zip code as the mid-west hounds. Yet, some will come down and win on cottontail. GOOD rabbit hounds, whether hare or cottontail bred, will compete from Canada to Louisiana in my opinion. Alot of beagles will compete on hare one weekend and cottontial the next-winning and placing as they go.

mybeagles · Post by **mybeagles** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:01 pm

Greg, I agree the midwest is coming back to what it should. I think the midwest is the best choice for the dogs I run. All that said very very few judges pick up dogs for reaching 10 yards in front of the check as long as they dont mouth off. Even if you hustle your but off, at the speed they run a small percentage of the checks get seen. Some running grounds are much better than others for that. I own one that stays real close and one that reaches a little in the front. I would wager a large some that the reacher will place more, and the closer dog does it much closer to what the book says. Both are pretty equal with speed, hunt, etc...If the midwest really does start promoting this, Ill be more than happy to migrate that way.

KanesIrish · Post by **KanesIrish** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:09 pm

Greg,
I've talked to a few people from your state and they say the exact as you said. Please do not think I was bashing the mid west in anway.

power · Post by **power** » Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:42 pm

going back a few posts to the point of loss (POL) dscription... my prefeerence is a dog to stop as close to the pol and try to pick it up there if it cant be found then to circle outward first close then further. I believe this is the biggest difference in speed. because most fasster hounds will overun too much for my taste and swing way out and form there it is a 50/50 chance they will find it. now to say the way i like is right i wont. who is to say what is right and wrong on this.my personal preference. I believe if you only runa hound on hare they will have to adjust for a cutting /doubling cottontail. a prominent spo beagler told me once 2 guys brought their hare hounds to run with his. they had never ran cottontails t. they led his dog up the hill wheer the race stopped momentarily. his dog came back down the hill and the 2 guys asked "whats he doing?" the guy said i think he just read a double . they scoffed. but at the bttom of the hioll he hit it again with the other 2 still over the hill. now if they had ran a big hare his dog probably wouldnt have sen much of the front. but he knew how to run a cottonatail and was bred to do it. hare hounds are bred to do it on hare. I thnk a majority of hare bred hounds are a tad too rough to run a zig -zag cottontail consistently. but you can try it. if you like the way they run they are right for you.
as for the nose ... i disagree i believe what is difference is the way their noses are used... airscent vs. groundscent nose is relevant from hound to hound. you can breed the biggest nose bitch to biggest nose stud and still lack nose. your odds were improved by this breeding but not a certain thng

WELLS WOODS · Post by **WELLS WOODS** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 2:32 am

KANES IRISH,
I know you were not bashing the Mid-West, but some seem to think we are trying to promote a wild, out of control hound and this is not true. We do like a hound to push the rabbit if scenting allows, but there is nothing more pleasing to see hounds slow down and grub the track when conditions demand. Every judge I've judged with in the Mid-West is looking for dogs that have the ability to gear up or down and stay under control of the line. We hunt with the dogs we trial and know that there is nothing more frustrating to a hunter than lost game due to poor houndwork.

KanesIrish · Post by **KanesIrish** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:59 am

Power,
how many hare bred hounds have you actually seen run, yourself?

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:36 am

Rob, I knew someone would question my saying that hare hounds are generally bred for more nose. I stand by that but will qualify the comment by saying few of us succeed at it. I've seen numerous cottontail bred hounds who had great nose, but in the larger scale of cottontail country, what are the odds of seeing conditions that demand nose for the extreme conditions of sub zero and deep snow? I know heat and low humidity can be tough too, but it's not the same. Anyway, not saying hare dogs actually HAVE more nose, but I think all of us are breeding for more nose. As for the subject of reaching, that's somewhat of a pet peeve for me, if nothing else because in Large Pack at least, it's almost impossible to get the number of those dogs who don't even acknowledge a check. Like you say, and I agree, it's a common sense thing. I never cared HOW a hound works a check, as long as he shows some effective method of coming up with the track that's not cheating his packmates. I had the opportunity to run Merlin and Ranger Dan together many times and this was a classic example of two equal but very different methods of working a check. Upon losing the line of scent, Merlin would make a quick tight loop, either left or right, usually inside 10 feet or so. Ranger Dan would stop immediately and RUN back to the last place he found scent and work from there. If neither came up with the track within 10 -15 seconds (a LONG time), Merlin would range out another 50 feet or so while Ranger wanted every bit of the line. Results were split pretty evenly and I don't prefer one over the other. The bottom line is that a true reacher will lose more game than he'll recover and the dog who reaches marginally but recovers the line consistently is going to be hard to pick up. There have been many times I've been torn between picking up and placing a hound over this. It's a judgement call but you need to look at this in the light of the other dogs in the race and how they compare. Is the pack better off with or without him? At some point the judges have to agree and decide. I've never run in Midwest SPO but I will say that I've become tired of seeing dogs in the northeast finishing that either can't or won't work a check without constant reaching and creating checks where they shouldn't exist.

Newby · Post by **Newby** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:49 am

Thanks for all of the info.It sounds like a dog bred to run hare can be a good dog on cottontail also,especially if he was started on cottontail.Kane's Irish I see you have a litter on the way. Would you say they are bred to run hares or cottontails?What do you run at the trials you attend?Do you think you will have any pups available from your upcoming litter,I am looking for a male to run cottontails only.

Bob Wiest · Post by **Bob Wiest** » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:23 pm

Newby, if you are really new to this you may have missed an important part of the answer to your question. While a hare hound can run a cottontail quite well ( my preference actually) if you buy hare hounds they will be MUCH faster than a medium speed cottontail dog. I hunt mile square chuncks of state land and a hard hitting hound suits my purpose. If I were to hunt 40- 120 acre plots I might be better with a slower hound. When I have hunted these smaller properties I have had my dogs drive rabbits onto land where they were not appreciated, and they push so hard that after a couple rabbits it's time to move to the next spot. If you are going to be hunting smaller properties you may find a medium speed cottontail dog may fit best.