2004 AKC SPO Nationals - Judges Listed & Running Order
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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MIKE BELLAMY BEAGLES.NET
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:59 pm
- Location: LIMA OHIO
no we are going to run our johnls dock dog in it !!! he is the one on the inside cover of the a. b. magazine ... he took 7 th out of 75 big males this week end at the akc trial in ky !!
MIKE BELLAMY LIMA OH (419) 296-0099
http://WWW.BEAGLES.NET
http://WWW.BEAGLES.NET
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Robert W. Mccoy Jr
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:57 pm
- Location: Canton Michigan
Jamie, you know this set up doesnt work. Last year I know 5 guys who entered dogs from the mid-west. Everyone of them were picked up in less that 10 minutes. Most of them were FC and VERY good dogs. I wish Earl lots of luck, I might come down just to watch. He is an excellent judge that stands by what he sees and I can not see how he would ever agree with the slower style of dog they run. The earlier post is correct. You cant put apples, oranges, bananas and kiwi fruit in the same pack and pick out the best fruit. There will be a very very very small turnout from the midwest as they know their dogs are not wanted. I agree that different nationals need to be run if its going to make any sense. This is basically a UGBF nationals. There is not a single dog that places that would ever place in a midwest trial. I better stop or Im going to offend somebody, and like the other post said, thats not my point. I dont care what speed, style, or anything a guy wants to run but lets not pretend they can all run together and 2 judges are going to sort all that out.
I feel that the Nationals, to some extent was bought about by AKC, to try and bring the "hunting" type Beaglers all together at one place, in hope to work out some of these differences. From the last post it looks likes some folks' minds are already made up about the outcome.
Recently I saw a post where a few figured it was AKC's duty to "straighten things out" as far as the diferences in judging. They give the Beaglers what they want, but the problem I feel is that the SPO Beaglers themselves can't settle one one type of hound. The others involved in the other National competitions have done just that. Why should the SPO Beaglers be treated "special", with mutiple Nationals, just because they can't get thier act together and "all look at the same hound"? We, the Beaglers in some cases, are our own worst enemy...
Recently I saw a post where a few figured it was AKC's duty to "straighten things out" as far as the diferences in judging. They give the Beaglers what they want, but the problem I feel is that the SPO Beaglers themselves can't settle one one type of hound. The others involved in the other National competitions have done just that. Why should the SPO Beaglers be treated "special", with mutiple Nationals, just because they can't get thier act together and "all look at the same hound"? We, the Beaglers in some cases, are our own worst enemy...
Good point Gd Tx. However if AKC thinks running the nationals like this is going to bring the sides together, they have failed miserably. I think both ends of this format are in defense mode. UBGF will quickly take any dog off the front reguardless if its causing checks, simply for not packing. Midwest will almost always pick off dogs from the back for being too slow. I must admit I have seen midwest start to pull some of the rough hounds out the past couple years, but the last ubgf trial I went too they are really slowing down. For these formats to blend, both sides would have to get rid of everything they own, or breed at least two generations to find dogs in the middle. If both sides are happy with the speed, style of dog they own, do you really think this would ever happen??? Brace and LP have basically one style/speed of hound. SPO has drastic differences. Im not demanding AKC have two different nationals for SPO, but lets not pretend, or expect our judges to all come together and sort this out in one day. There is considerable differences in opinion on this subject even within the 3-4 AKC reps. Mel Stewart is obviously with the UGBF speed dogs, and Bill .V. is with the Mid West. I really can see the sides of both. Dog ownership is about keeping what you like, lets not let AKC force us to have compimise so we can run in a single weekend event!
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Guest
I know one thing. A good rabbit dog will win every class...A good medium slow dog will win. Its not that mine cant win, its that the judges will not allow mine or any other midwest dog to win reguardless how good it is. The same as your dog wouldnt have any chance to win at a midwest trial. I wouldnt consider my dog being picked up in 3 minutes a good time either. I wouldnt want to give the winner the pleasure of adding my dog to the number of entries. Thats what happened last year with all the midwest dogs. They were ALL picked up in less that 10 minutes and just counted as an entry.
A good dog will win each class your right, but good for what?
Good luck with the UGBF nationals!!!!!!!!!!!
A good dog will win each class your right, but good for what?
Good luck with the UGBF nationals!!!!!!!!!!!
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power
powerpak1@hotmail.com
I would really like to disagree with the last post. I had a buddy who ran his big ubgf male there and he was the strongest dog in all 3 packs I watched.those were deep south and ubgf judges inthe big males.this dog made it through 3rd series. he just lacked alot of sloppiness that other dogs wiht his speed had. I have no idea what federation most of those other dogs were from. if you look there is aa midwetern judge in the big males this year. they oughta be allowed to move if this guy judges the sasme way he does in his reg.lic trials. with this trial your just gonna hafta line your dog up in the right year with the right judge. for you midwest guys this looks like your year to go along way if your dogs are up to it this year.
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KanesIrish
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:54 am
- Location: Connecticut
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Helpful Houndsman
I think it's funny how one post people state judges are great judges and will stand their ground... then posts later turn around and contradict themselves. Which is it? Do you think someone will stand their ground or do you think they'll be manipulated to do what the other judge wants? You can't have it both ways...
Indeed hounds from the more aggressive sects have been picked up in the past. Indeed some may be FC or IFC, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the greatest thing since sliced bred. If you think so then you're kidding yourselves. I'm not going to say these dogs aren't good dogs, because they wouldn't have their titles if they weren't halfway decent dogs. Else what many of you are bitching and moaning about after each trial is indeed true. I don't think I need to state what that is, I assume most of you can read between the lines.
Truth is 90% of those that complain about getting picked up are the same ones that get picked up in their own associations. Indeed they get a champ here and there, but after doing so they think everything they breed and raise are FC material. Needless to say when many champion a hound or their dog(s) a win, that individual thinks everytime they go they're winning the trial. If many of us would learn how to lose before we won, we wouldn't be complaining so much about judges not placing slow dogs and picking fast ones up or getting cheated in general.
My opinion is that the only way a difference will be made is to show up in mass. Not just 5 or 6 hounds from one association or another, but 20 to 30 hounds from that. The five to six dogs doesn't even begin to showcase what an association has. It's from low numbers like that, that bloodlines and assocations get pigeonholed. Like I stated previous, every single dog in a sect doesn't always run the same. You may have extreme fast and medium fast in the same sect.
To say a dog is going to get picked off the back just because he's slow is absurb. Or he'll get picked off the front because he's too fast is making excuses before you even go. Many of you that state this haven't read your rulebook very clearly. A dog can't be too fast as long as he/she is pursue their game in an adequate and accurate manner. Fact is people that state that are the same that's bitching week in and week out about their dogs getting picked off the front as well. "They must have not wanted a front end dog today." With speed you better have control! Many that state a line like the aformentioned qoute fail to realize they're being picked off the front because that 2nd and 3rd place dog is turning it from behind and making their "front end" dog look like crap. Many of you confuse your fast with what actually is too rough! Ever hear the saying, "too much is not enough"?
When I first started trialing we had one of these "conservative bred" dogs. Having been bit by the trial bug and not knowing any better, we took this Goodwater Burt bred bitch to the "SUPERBOWL" in 66 little females(the biggest class I've ever ran in) and went to the last 12 after three series and two days of running. Back then Jessamine always had 250 to 350 entries from everywhere from the Deep South to New England to Canada. Today those numbers have dropped drastically for various reasons. Nevertheless when one says dogs from another assocation or areas doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell in the Midwest they are sadly mistaken. Indeed they may have a harder chance, because indeed we do like a more aggressive hound... But if they're a true medium speed or faster, run a close line, and aren't easily blown then they'll stand a better chance than this rougher than hell, front by any cost hound.
Over the past few years I've seen many judges start to crack down more... they're realizing when they get that rougher than a cob dog out of there, they're seeing long runs with superb speed. I think Power made a good point, this year is perhaps the Midwest hounds best opportunity to show what they have. I don't know Al Slocum personally, but from what I've been told he likes a hound to get up and go as long as they're running it accurately. Needless to say, they'll not be any 5 minute runs and up unless they're messing the pack up drastically. "Better be ready for two days if they're more that 60" is what I've heard many relay to me. The same goes with Earl... He believes in letting them run and giving people their money's worth. He likes a hound that can scoot, but one that runs clean and close. It's funny Earl's a Midwest judge, but many trialers from the Midwest assocation label him and like judges from the Midwest as conservative. Conservative and Midwest judge used in the same sentence makes me think that sooner than we think unity will be accomplished.
I welcome each of you to come and run. Just because you don't place doesn't mean you can't have fun. Trialing should be about sharing good fellowship and not just about taking home a blue ribbon all the time.
Indeed hounds from the more aggressive sects have been picked up in the past. Indeed some may be FC or IFC, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the greatest thing since sliced bred. If you think so then you're kidding yourselves. I'm not going to say these dogs aren't good dogs, because they wouldn't have their titles if they weren't halfway decent dogs. Else what many of you are bitching and moaning about after each trial is indeed true. I don't think I need to state what that is, I assume most of you can read between the lines.
Truth is 90% of those that complain about getting picked up are the same ones that get picked up in their own associations. Indeed they get a champ here and there, but after doing so they think everything they breed and raise are FC material. Needless to say when many champion a hound or their dog(s) a win, that individual thinks everytime they go they're winning the trial. If many of us would learn how to lose before we won, we wouldn't be complaining so much about judges not placing slow dogs and picking fast ones up or getting cheated in general.
My opinion is that the only way a difference will be made is to show up in mass. Not just 5 or 6 hounds from one association or another, but 20 to 30 hounds from that. The five to six dogs doesn't even begin to showcase what an association has. It's from low numbers like that, that bloodlines and assocations get pigeonholed. Like I stated previous, every single dog in a sect doesn't always run the same. You may have extreme fast and medium fast in the same sect.
To say a dog is going to get picked off the back just because he's slow is absurb. Or he'll get picked off the front because he's too fast is making excuses before you even go. Many of you that state this haven't read your rulebook very clearly. A dog can't be too fast as long as he/she is pursue their game in an adequate and accurate manner. Fact is people that state that are the same that's bitching week in and week out about their dogs getting picked off the front as well. "They must have not wanted a front end dog today." With speed you better have control! Many that state a line like the aformentioned qoute fail to realize they're being picked off the front because that 2nd and 3rd place dog is turning it from behind and making their "front end" dog look like crap. Many of you confuse your fast with what actually is too rough! Ever hear the saying, "too much is not enough"?
When I first started trialing we had one of these "conservative bred" dogs. Having been bit by the trial bug and not knowing any better, we took this Goodwater Burt bred bitch to the "SUPERBOWL" in 66 little females(the biggest class I've ever ran in) and went to the last 12 after three series and two days of running. Back then Jessamine always had 250 to 350 entries from everywhere from the Deep South to New England to Canada. Today those numbers have dropped drastically for various reasons. Nevertheless when one says dogs from another assocation or areas doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell in the Midwest they are sadly mistaken. Indeed they may have a harder chance, because indeed we do like a more aggressive hound... But if they're a true medium speed or faster, run a close line, and aren't easily blown then they'll stand a better chance than this rougher than hell, front by any cost hound.
Over the past few years I've seen many judges start to crack down more... they're realizing when they get that rougher than a cob dog out of there, they're seeing long runs with superb speed. I think Power made a good point, this year is perhaps the Midwest hounds best opportunity to show what they have. I don't know Al Slocum personally, but from what I've been told he likes a hound to get up and go as long as they're running it accurately. Needless to say, they'll not be any 5 minute runs and up unless they're messing the pack up drastically. "Better be ready for two days if they're more that 60" is what I've heard many relay to me. The same goes with Earl... He believes in letting them run and giving people their money's worth. He likes a hound that can scoot, but one that runs clean and close. It's funny Earl's a Midwest judge, but many trialers from the Midwest assocation label him and like judges from the Midwest as conservative. Conservative and Midwest judge used in the same sentence makes me think that sooner than we think unity will be accomplished.
I welcome each of you to come and run. Just because you don't place doesn't mean you can't have fun. Trialing should be about sharing good fellowship and not just about taking home a blue ribbon all the time.
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Helpful Houndsman
Forgot something. If any of you have a problem or are offended by what I've stated feel free to email me at real_innovator@yahoo.com I'll be more than happy to discuss dogs and trialing with you at any time.
Thanks,
HH
Thanks,
HH
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KanesIrish
- Posts: 427
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:54 am
- Location: Connecticut