What still constitutes a bloodline

[Tim H]

I never said to eliminate seeing as much as possible but eliminating something that can help you better predict what you will get out of a breeding is not the best way to go. Linebreeding is an excellent tool when used in conjunction with all the other tools in the tool box.

RiverBottom, as I said, you can put any line or dog into my post and the point is the same. I simply used an example out of the lines and dogs that were previously posted. It is not a post about Branko or Jack so I don't believe the intent on anyones part was to be commenting on those in particular. No ruffled feathers here.

I don't view someone as having a line until 3 generations have proven consistent and healthy. It takes 3 generations before some recessive genes can start to show up. That's just my opinion. Once you do an outcross you are not breeding the same line, so to me that's when you would stop calling it a line.

[klrconcrete]

I should have added that I think a pedigree can help when you have first hand knowledge of the ancestors, Branko should be able at this point to predict with great accuracy what linebred Jack of all trades blood produces, and maybe some others who have linebred it for several generations (just using this blood as an example) the problem begins when somebody who doesnt have any more knowledge than the pedigree he is reading tells-starts making crosses hinging on the edge of his paper. Also, when someone breeds a certain line long enough you should be able to go to his kennel and see the results physically- coloration, confirmation- good or bad, size, etc. there should be some degree of uniformity somewhere. Simply the problem is to many beaglers can read today! Kurt Robinson

[NorWester1]

I think a pedigree makes for interesting reading while you're "on the throne" and thats about it. Riverbottom and Klrconcrete have it right. A prepotent bloodline is based on traits and characteristics not names printed in ink on fancy paper.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

IF YO LEAVE THE PEDIGREE OUT THE BEST THING TO DO IS KEEP THE DOGS SEPERATED" BECAUSE ALL YOU ARE DOING IS FLIPPING A COIN.IF YOU CAN'T LOOK AT A PEDIGREE AND TELL A LOT ABOUT HOW THE PUPS WILL TURN OUT IT IS REALLY HARD TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION ABOUT THE BREEDING,OF COURSE WATCHING IT RUN IS ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA.I'AM MOSTLY REFERING TO LINE BREEDING,OF COURSE THE OUT CROSSES TAKE A LOT MORE RESEARCH.I AM NOT CONSIDERED A BREEDER,I HAVE STUDIED HOUNDS RUNNING AND REPRODUCING ABILITIES FOR ABOUT 35 YRS AND I WANT LOOK AT BREEDING A HOUND IF THE PEDIGREE IS NOT THE RIGHT HOUNDS AND IN THE RIGHT PLACES IN THE PED.I HAVE A HOUND THAT HAS A VERY OBVIOUS TRAIT THAT I SAW IN HOUNDS 5 GEN'S DEEP IN HIS PED.I LIKE TO SEE- 7- GENERATIONS IF POSSABLE.IT CAN DRIVE YOU CRAZY,J.M.O.
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEALES

[mybeagles]

Understanding genetics to me is key to weighing the benefit of a pedigree. Someone made a good point stating 1 outcross and your not still dealing with the same line. At this point the genetics are all scrambled beyond prediction and now you are left with what Kurt, Nor Easter, and others have stated, you better be basing your breeding on the parents not the great great greats in the pedigree.

I think everyone would agree you cant just keep inbreeding for ever. At some point you hit the dead end I referred to in the opening post. You get as good as your going to get, then you have to mix things up and try to get back to a high point. I have heard many respeceted beaglers say they think Heli-prop was a top performer from Branko's kennel. Im certain Branko would like a kennel full of Heli-prop and Ali-baba but it doesnt work that way. Linebreeders/inbreeders I think mistakingly lead everyone to believe they can reach a pinnacle and then fill the kennel with dogs at that level.

Having watched the big successful kennels for 15 years now, Im not conviced the the ones that inbreed/linebreed are producing any better than the guys that are outcrossing best to best and making repeat crosses when possible. By producing I mean both superstar dogs and average dog in the kennel. More predicatable, yes, Ill give them that, but if the dogs are not consistantly better who cares you can predict the time a dog craps every day. There seems to be this fad of wanting a linebred dog, clueless of anything but a pedigree they heard was a good one.

I hate to be wrong about something, but its far worse to be wrong and have others listening and following suit. Have you ever seen that in beagling?

[JUDE]

Consistency & Uniformity (if there is such a word)
that's what makes a bloodline in my opinion .

Pedigree's are a must have when breeding for both .
You should never breed anything expecting less than
all great hounds out of the litter when given a proper
chance . I'm not saying they'll all be World Hunt Winners
but they should be solid hounds in the right hands .


Consistency & Uniformity
and I'm not talking about color and size
although I prefer a full 15 inch hound and
like for them to be pretty .

There's great foundation for bloodlines right
here in the good old U.S.A. Buy american .


.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

CONSISTENCY
THAT IS THE KEY,I DON'T INBREED I LINE BREED,AND AS FAR AS OUT CROSSING THIS IS ABOUT AS CLOSE AS I COME TO OUT CROSSING----A POSSABLE BREEDING----------- LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A FEMALE HOUND THAT HAS MT ZION PETE 6 TIMES IN A 5 GEN-PED-3 TIMES ON THE TOP AND 3 TIMES ON THE BOTTOM IN THE 4 TH AND 5 TH GEN.-----NOW YOU HAVE A MALE HOUND THAT HAS NORTHWAY SPUR 3 TIMES ON THE TOP SIDE AND DINGUS MACRAE 3-TIMES ON THE BOTTOM SIDE ALSO IN THE 4TH AND 5TH GEN'S,,,, NOW SINCE I KNOW THAT NORTHWAY SPUR AND DINGUS MACRAE,,,BOTH GO BACK TO MT ZION PETE THAT TELLS ME I NOW HAVE 12 CROSSES OF MT ZION PETE IN THE" PUPS" IF I DECIDED TO MAKE THE CROSS....... MOST WOULD SAY'' THAT IT IS TO FAR BACK TO INFLUENCE THE PUP'S EITHER WAY AND(" I RESPECT YOUR OPINION") BUT THE THE PUPS WILL HAVE 8 OR 10% MT ZION PETE IN THEM(I GUESSED AT THE % WITHOUT LOOKING AT MY PED PROGRAM SO 8 OR 10 -MIGHT NOT BE EXACT).BUT TO MAKE A LONG QUESTION SHORTER HOW CAN YOU GET THE CONSISTENCY IF YOU DON'T KNOW THIS.AND ANOTHER POINT ---WOULD YOU SAY THESE PUPS WERE NORTHWAY SPUR BRED OR MAYBE DINGUS MACRAE,BRED ----WHAT ABOUT MT ZION PETE BRED....WHAT DO YOU THINK???????????
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[mybeagles]

That was a pretty confusing circle you took us through. Im not smart enough to figure out the point you were making. None the less, Keep going and someday you might resurect Mt. Zion Pete, until then keep flipping the coin and maybe you can flip pete. Would you at least admit generations 1, 2, and 3 are exponentially of greater importance than 4 and 5?

To answer your question I would say NEITHER: I would say they were PINE MT BEAGLES bred if indeed you were the one that bred them. Although I like to see great producers beyond the 3rd generation, I dont believe based on the genetics classes Ive taken that its very important. Talk to me about sire and dam and maybe grand sire and dam if your inbreeding/linebreeding.

I like the comment that keeps coming up: "if you breed them take responsibility for the good and bad". Cant blame Branko or Greenbay kennels if you start inbreeding what they started and produce fools. In the other fashion, if you breed some Branko dogs that produce some FC's in the litter you still get the nod for making the cross. Any line of dogs in the wrong hands will certainly produce culls, especially going along with my belief that 90% are culls.

mybeagles

[RiverBottom]

All beagles in this country go back %100 to english beagles. Does that make them English bred?

"HOW CAN YOU GET THE CONSISTENCY IF YOU DON'T KNOW THIS."

Kowing it or not doesn't make any difference. The only thing that matters is what you know first hand.

If you raise a litter of pups and keep four of them, they will all be different. Line bred, in bred or outcrossed, no two pups are the same. None of these pups will be just like either of the parents. Yet all four of these pups have the same pedigree. Now you pick one of these pups to breed the next generation. You just changed the line to make it what YOU think it should be like. If you had picked a different pup to keep, your line would have gone a different direction. Multiply that change by how ever many generations Mt. Zion Pete is away from the dogs you have now and you can see how much things could have changed.

It is darn near impossible to breed a dog that turns out just like old superdog even if you know everything there is to know about him. Now if you never actualy hunted with old superdog, your chances of getting one like him are close to 0. You might end up with one that is better than old superdog ever was, but you won't ever get the same.

Rufus, you have bred more good dogs than most ever will. You should quit giving credit to some dog that's been dead for 50 years. When someone asks you how your dogs are bred, tell 'em they are PINE MT. BRED

[snowshoehareguide]

dont look back-----------look sideways LOL
most important dogs to look at dont even show on pedigree-

whats litttermates to the dogs you are considering breeding look like- ?
whats littermates to the grandparents- -? those are a

pretty good indicator of what your litter will be like -

there is no guarantee of anything --all you can do is increase your odds a little --

they are better indicator than ol famous thats seven generations back -

a superstar out of a litter of culls--may not throw great pups no matter how good he is-

breed the good dogs out of good litters-
once in awhile you will find a common ancestor -- that has influence for generations-

a stud dog produced stud dogs -- and not just cause they were advertized

dogs line bred on ol wayback --- if they are showing the traits you want --NOW is great--

if you have to look way back to see what you want ,maybe time to move on,




mybeagles ,


90% culls-- .............. i dont know you, or your dogs ,

but id rather get a pup from a guy with that kind of attitude-


some people dont seem to have any culls - or even dogs with any faults

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

When making a breeding, one should look closely at the pedigree going back 5 generations, BUT most importantly, one should watch the stud run AND breed only to a quality bitch. IMHO, there are way to many inferior bitch's being bred to decent stud hounds in hopes it will produce dogs like the stud. Not going to happen.
To answer the question....a bloodline is a line of dogs that been line bred for several generations by a particular breeder. It's that simple IMHO.

[Tim H]

Snowshoehareguide, that is a great point about looking sideways, of course you couldn't do that without the pedigrees telling you who the siblings were (unless you raise the litter yourself), so pedigrees help whether looking at them sideways or backward. A good litter out of a breeding would be a really good indicator for the next litter if it was the same breeding.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

ED
THAT IS A GOOD POINT ABOUT THE FEMALE WAY TO MANY POORLY BRED FEMALES ARE TAKEN TO A FC OR IFC AND EXPECTED TO HAVE GOOD PUPS,AND JUST BECAUSE IT IS A FC.OR IFC.OR GR.RCH.DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL REPRODUCE.LOOKING AT LITTERMATES IS VERY IMPORTANT I HAD -2-MALES ONCE OUT OF THE SAME LITTER BOTH WERE GOOD RABBIT DOGS ONE I LIKED SOME BETTER ,I BRED THEM BOTH OVER TIME TO THE SAME FEMALE THE ONE I LIKED THE BEST DIDN'T THROW AS GOOD A PUP AS HIS BROTHER.I THINK ANY AND ALL INFORMATION YOU CAN GET IS IMPORTANT IF YOU BREED A HOUND --THIS IS AN INTERESTING POST,,LET'S HEAR SOME DIFFERENT IDEAS..
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Bev]

A prepotent bloodline is based on traits and characteristics not names printed in ink on fancy paper.

I have to wonder if one can even separate the two? Traits and characteristics are wholly dependent on the names printed on the fancy paper. Who do you think owns those traits and characteristics? The dogs on the paper. You must consider the paper before you make a breeding. Even if most of the dogs are gone now, you must do your research and talk to those who did see them run, or have pups from them, or even grandpups. Anything else is just a shot in the dark because no matter how good your male or female is, you cannot rely on that to get you quality pups. There's no guarantee he/she can produce like kind. Many dogs cannot reproduce the same traits that make them world-beaters. Conversely, many an average dog produces get much better than they. They were blessed with the ability to throw the best traits of their ancestors. You can't know where it's coming from without the pedigree.

Consider this. A man decides to make a breeding of his best rabbit running machine to his buddy's new stud dog who is also a rabbit running machine. In fact, that male has many good traits just like his female. Good decision, right? He doesn't need papers. He's breeding the best to the best, and that's what you're supposed to do, right? The first litter of pups turn out to be average at best, and a few of them have a problem with their GPS system. They backtrack. He keeps the best - the ones that don't backtrack and he does the old fashioned thang of taking a female back to the sire. Or crosses the female out, and then takes that litter's female back to the grandsire. All of the pups are garbage, and he's scratching his head. Three generations have passed, and he can't figure out why he couldn't get a single exceptional pup from breeding the best two dogs in his world together.

Out come the papers. Guess what? His original female rabbit running machine and his buddy's original male rabbit running machine had common ancestors. Mr. Backtracker showed up twice in her pedigree and showed up twice in his pedigree. Now everybody knew that Mr. Backtracker got his FC title because he was a front-runner, blessed with speed, and on good scenting days he didn't backtrack -- he didn't get caught by the judges. It was okay to have him show up once in the pedigree because he would throw that foot and hunt, and one could always cull any offspring that might backtrack. But wait, now we have Mr. Backtracker crossed 4 times in a pedigree, then 6 times in a pedigree. And we wonder why we couldn't get good dogs from good dogs.

I know that's a long way to say it, but even in my own breeding/buying decisions, I know of dogs (I never saw run) that I will accept once in the pedigree, but not twice - not once on top and once on bottom. The dog appears more than once, I won't make the cross (or buy the hound).

How far back do you have to go before the dogs or bloodlines have no influence? Depends on percentages. If you have one dog or bloodline show up 9 times in a 5-gen pedigree...like Ozzie. That dog is 31.25% Dingus MacRae. His relationship to Dingus is somewhere in between direct son and grandson. In this case, those 8 instances of Dingus in the fifth, and one instance in the 4th has a TON of influence in the current dog.

Just my thoughts.

[DoubleEagle]

Bev, although it was a little convoluted, that last part was one of the better explanations of line breeding I've seen. When it comes right down to it... breeding dogs is always going to be a little hit or miss. But knowing where the dog came from and how it's ancestors ran helps alot. And I think everyone here can agree on that. And although alot of these older lines may have been diluted the buyer can still do their homework to some extent. Just like anything we do with our dogs... the results are often a product of how much work we put into it. And that work should start before you even buy the dog.

Mike McCollough