Read This (Not about Dogs)

[Tim H]

beaglerun, I see you saying that it is society that is the problem which implies that the school system is not part of the problem. As I said in my previous post, I believe there are multiple contributors but those who defend the school system don't want to acknowledge the contributions the school system is making to the problem.

Typical responses from educators in the school system when it is suggested that the system isn't educating the children.

1. It's society.
2. It's the parents.
3. It's a lack of Funds.
4. Too many kids in the class.
5. Too many government mandates.

Nowhere do you hear how the school system is contributing to the problem.

Your children will one day work with, live next to, or marry some of the same issues you are working so hard at getting them away from.

It's not the kids that I'm getting my children away from, it's the mediocre teachers. I didn't start home schooling again because the schools were violent or socially depraved, I did it because the teachers weren't contributing to my children's education.

Let me restate this so everyone understands. Not all teachers are bad, there are some very good ones. The system is the problem.

[Tim H]

S.R. Patch, Did you really think I would use the current system that I believe has proven itself to be ineffective in accomplishing its objectives instead of one that I know would be more efficient and reach higher standards sooner?

[S.R.Patch]

A funny thing just came back to me, talking about school. In first grade, if you were caught talking after being warned, you had to wear a large red tongue taped to your chin. It was cut out of red crate paper. Man, I hated wearing that red tongue... ... totally unacceptable today, why, little johnny might get a complex over it... ...sure beat a wack from the principal tho...

[S.R.Patch]

S.R. Patch, Did you really think I would use the current system that I believe has proven itself to be ineffective in accomplishing its objectives instead of one that I know would be more efficient and reach higher standards sooner?

No Timmy, I believed you would take the class and do what was expected of you. Money is a object! It would be great if a teacher had helpers and could bust the class up into small specialized groups, but they don't have that luxury, and then you have segregation that might offend some(smarties/dummies).

I just want you to take these renegade pups and make Rabbitdawgs out of them... ...now remember, no shock collars, that would be cruel.

My daughter thought to be a teacher but she's afraid of the kids...
The quality of the teachers can't help but go down when they themselves can see no hope in the task at hand...

[APFII]

QUOTE"Typical responses from educators in the school system when it is suggested that the system isn't educating the children.

1. It's society.
2. It's the parents.
3. It's a lack of Funds.
4. Too many kids in the class.
5. Too many government mandates"
These happen to be true statements!I hope your children turn out better than some of the home school products I have seen. Would it not be better to supliment your childs education, than trying to do it on your own? You are right in the fact some can teach and some can not. Are you one that can?

[Larry G]

What I was getting at was not the lack of a good education provided by the public schools, but the danger of getting shot and killed while attending...defenseless and a sitting duck target for some nut who has been picked on or lost a girl friend, or for some reason just wants to end it all and take a few with him.

SR if the teachers are scared of the students we need to wipe the blackboard clean and start over with a new policy that will reverse that, and if it means shooting all the supreme court justices on the same day to fix what's wrong with this country, may they rest in peace

[Tim H]

S.R. Patch, see that is my point. There is a ton of money going into the education system, it's just not being managed correctly.

I wonder if I could tape tongues on the chins of the mouthy dogs and would that make them be quiet?

[Tim H]

APFII,
1. I'll give you the point that there are some societal problems.
2. There are more parents that are involved and concerned then there are parents who just don't care!
3. There is no lack of MONEY going into the education system!!!
4. Make smaller classes and hire more teachers. (see #3.)
5. The government mandates are there because the educators were not educating the kids.

Now even if I concede on all 5 of these points do we then say the school system is not a contributor? Why is there no acknowledgment of accountability by those whose job it is to educate when kids are not being educated?

As far as "supplementing" my children's education, as I said previously, they were in the public school and it was more effort on my part for worse results. Why would I then "supplement" with a failing system?

I am indeed gifted with the ability to teach, but more importantly my kids have been taught to learn in a system that works.

I'm not sure why you have so much bitterness towards people who would choose to be involved in their child's education?

[green river]

Tim H.,
In alot ways I agree with what you have said. But on your first post it sounded like you were bashing all teachers and I am glad I waited to respond. I can't take up for all the teachers out there and I'm not one of them. I did however marry a 3rd grade school teacher. I never realized how hard a teacher is worked and all the meetings they have to go through almost EVERY day. I've seen my wife grade papers and get so frustrated until she cries because she knows alot of these kids can do better. She really cares about these kids. I know you are not blaming all teachers, you are blaming the system. You're right. The system is broke. And I like you , and many on this board, believe that it all starts at home. I hope I can raise my son and future children (if any) like I was raised.
I also agree with S.R. Patch. I really liked what he had to say. ( He does have a way with words) But he is right. If more parents would stand up and give a few more lessons on behaviour (such as whoopings) it might be a different world. I know if I got a a$$ whooping in school I got one when I got home. (My principle lived across the road!)

[beaglerun]

Thanks Green River. I like the way you stated your opinion. I wish I could have said it in the same manner.

[marr24]

Yowzas, Tim H, as a future educator myself your words cut deep LOL! I would advise that you do some serious research on the issue at hand and you may come away with a different perspective. I am in an interesting position as a 3rd year education major and a parent of 3 children in public schools. I can see both sides of the problem, but do believe that the majority of schools and teachers are doing the best they can with what they have. Times have changed, the expectations of future teachers has risen tremendously (one of the good things about No Child Left). Getting in and graduating with an education degree is MUCH harder than it used to be, but it's also harder to get quality students as they would rather go to school for an occupation with less stress and more money.

1. I'll give you the point that there are some societal problems.

SOME societal problems! LOL, I would certainly hope you would concede this point.

2. There are more parents that are involved and concerned then there are parents who just don't care!

This all depends on the school district you are looking at. In some areas, yes this would be true. In some urban districts, not so much.

3. There is no lack of MONEY going into the education system!!!

There is a tremendous lack of the money promised through the No Child Left Behind Act. Districts are struggling and have to do certain things in order to meet Annual Yearly Progress, they are promised funds to help meet standards but are not receiving them. It's quite a mess really. The real problem with funding is where it is going today in comparison to 10 yrs ago. Because of standardized testing, funding is now concentrated at the disadvantaged or disabled students where test scores are lowest. Unfortunatley the average and gifted children are getting shafted here. Educators realize this but their hands are tied.

4. Make smaller classes and hire more teachers. (see #3.)

Nice thought, but with the lack of current funding, it isn't happening any time soon.

5. The government mandates are there because the educators were not educating the kids.

Govenment mandates are nothing new in education. In fact they have been a part of the educational system since the 1700's in the Americas. I assume you mean the No Child Left Behind Act when you talk about today's government mandates. They are there in order to produce equality in all standards across the board. All children are expected to meet the same standard no matter their economic, regional, or intellectual status. Hence, "no child left behind". It sounds great, but the implementation is much less realistic. The mandates are in place, not because educators are not educating kids (quite the generalization), but because there was no uniform way to monitor whether or not state standards were being met.

All in all, it's an interesting debate and something that affects us all.

[APFII]

APFII,
1. I'll give you the point that there are some societal problems.
2. There are more parents that are involved and concerned then there are parents who just don't care!
3. There is no lack of MONEY going into the education system!!!
4. Make smaller classes and hire more teachers. (see #3.)
5. The government mandates are there because the educators were not educating the kids.

Now even if I concede on all 5 of these points do we then say the school system is not a contributor? Why is there no acknowledgment of accountability by those whose job it is to educate when kids are not being educated?

As far as "supplementing" my children's education, as I said previously, they were in the public school and it was more effort on my part for worse results. Why would I then "supplement" with a failing system?

I am indeed gifted with the ability to teach, but more importantly my kids have been taught to learn in a system that works.

I'm not sure why you have so much bitterness towards people who would choose to be involved in their child's education?

Not sure why you think I am bitter towards people who home school. Just stateing what I have seen.

Glad you are a gifted individual. Were you self taught or did the school system mabe help you a little along the way ?

I am not a teacher ,but I am close enouth to a few to understand the difficulty of their job.

The truoble with Gov. mandates is that they are rarely funded.

The statement that they should just hire more teachers because there is no lack of money is just wrong. Go talk to your board of education.

[Tim H]

marr24, why do you assume I have not researched this? Maybe my research is what has given me this perspective.

No one can honestly say that there is not enough funding for education. Anyone who pays any attention to the subject will know that if anything it is over funded. It is the way the funds are handled within the system that is the problem. As your statement verifies.

It's quite a mess really. The real problem with funding is where it is going today in comparison to 10 yrs ago

The mandates are in place, not because educators are not educating kids... monitor whether or not state standards were being met.

Your own statements show the contradiction of your position. The state standards are set to ensure kids are getting educated so they are monitoring whether the kids are getting educated. The results so far are showing that they are not.

Again, where are any of you who are defending the system acknowledging that the system has any contributing factors? You're not! You're implying that there is no problem within the school system. You have glommed onto the standard excuses that I've heard over and over and provided for you.

Is it really that hard to acknowledge that the education system itself MAY have some contribution to the FACT that our kids are not being educated.

[bill (flint river )]

funny my wife works for the school system and they are way under funded. tim u have a right to your opion, just like i am. it's easy to blame the system, insteed of the parents.

[marr24]