Gentics-Gun Dog Beagle

[Stan Rawlinson]

Hey Bob, where did you find the info on the 14 genes that control hunt. This really perks my interest. One of my main goals is to try to put as much hunt into these SPO dogs as I can.

[Chris]

You're a pretty smart dude, Stan. I really enjoyed reading your long post.

[bob huffman]

Big Dog!!!! You are the man!!!! You have a grasp of boolean algebra and certainly understand the law of chances and odds. Genetics boils down to 75% math. Its right up your alley. The info is only a search engine away!!! Stan I had written a long explanation of this ti Joe but it timed out. In it I included a little speech about trade secrets and that I may be willing to part with my list

[bob huffman]

Need hunt uh? The problem is getting it in there without screwing up the rest of the SPO traits you already have. To do that I would look for a dog that has an overabundance of hunt so you only have to make one cross to get enough. That way you won't have to keep scrambling what you already have by continual outcrosses.

[bob huffman]

I am 2 hours south of Wapello and actual live in Wapello county right beside chief wapellos grave.

[CHAD_PLUNKETT]

WOW!!!!!! Yall have really scrambled my brain with this topic. What are some good books on this subject to buy that a breeder would really benefit from? Thanks for everyones input becuase ive learned somethings from everyones knowledge. Hey Stan i'll try to give you a call this weekend if that sounds good to you.

[Joe West]

Bob: We can tell by looking at our blanket backed hounds which ones carry the recessive for the lemon and white coloring. We know how they will produce that color and that is why I agreed with you. I don't think much along the lines of coat or color when thinking of breeding hounds because I don't care much what color they are so long as it's a true hound color. I had my brain stuck on field qualities and spoke too fast but relax. I agreed with you. Your into my subject here and if you ain't so all fired up about beaten Joe West you might pick up something usefull.

For example the fellas need to pick up more hunt in his hounds. The search for the right breeding partner is the hard part. What you need to do is find a family of hounds known to produce hounds who are the same or similar type to the hounds you already have but which are known to produce the desired hunt you are searching for. Next breed to one of their proven stallions and see what you get. It might take a few breedings to get the exact hound you are looking for. That is, All of the desireable traits you already have plus the improved hunt, but if your patiant and have done your homework for selection you will be successful. Then go right back into your line breeding program and work to "set" your newly aquired trait.

Right there is where I got the line breeding from when you mentioned scientific method. You cannot set any traits useing an out crossing breeding program. You must outcross to pick up desired traits that you don't have in your hounds but you need outcross only the once to pick it up and then you must line breed to set that trait. Line breeding IS the scientific method of breeding.

[AlabamaSwamper]

Who gives a rats butt what color a dog will reproduce. I sure don't. I have a dog that is grey and no, not some diluted blue. I have seen those and he looks nothing like them. I know dogs in his background for three gen on one side and a guy back home had his mother's ancestors for several generations. Now, no matter what they breed to, them greys throw grey pups. I did him a favor and bought this dog since he was out of work but he was worth it.

Now, I say just breed your best dogs and let nature take its course. To much confusion and nothing is 100% so why rattle your brain about it. Just breed your best male to your best female. Some of this sounds like another former member of another board. He tried to tell me that he could tell what a dog would reproduce when that dog was 8 weeks old. I said, yeah, probably the same type dogs that he was bred out of since it was supposedly line bred.

[bob huffman]

There is an echo in here!! Why are you explaining about outcrossing once when I already said that. Tell me something new like about the recessive that became a dominant or the double recessive that appears a s a dominant. You may be breaking new ground. Facts Joe!! I am looking for facts proven by the scientific method you misdefined. People have line bred long before science. The first mention of it in human history is in the Bible in Genesis. Terah had children by at least one of his grandaughters and 8 of the 12 tribes come from that union. They then married into the family to preserve it according to Gods will. People have linebred plants and animals since the very beginning of domestication. It is nothing new or scientific. What is scientific is the mode of inheritance of individual traits. Collecting what you call HUMAN TRASH has given you a righteous attitude Joe. Quit beating around the bush and give me those examples of your theory about recessive genes. . I have been linebreeding for 30 years and wrote an article about it in Feb issue of American beagler. Maybe you missed it. Now I am ready to learn about your recessive gene theory. I know all about your lemon color and how the ones carring it hidden will have a slight diluted tint to there coat. My line has all the colors including a diluted lemon which comes out as a light buff color and the diluted black which comes out as a mousey grey. This is caused by a dilution modifier gene that is recessive. I don't need an explanation of that. I want your explanation of the theory you speak about in regard to recessives becoming dominant. I will wait while you go read your book.

[Beagleman973]

Stan let me borrow his book and I've read it twice, but I must confess it is very heavy reading and I'm just a simple country boy.

But...correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure some of you will! Many of todays dog breeds were "created" by breeding two different breeds. That's how a new breed was created or brought into existence if you will. Now, if you have two recessive genes combine, it becomes dominant in that breeding, correct, hence the lemon color, etc. Now if you were to continuously breed recessive to recessive and cull the other pups that showed the dominant genes, like black and tan, wouldn't eventually these recessive genes become dominant? Isn't that how the breed has changed over the years? Otherwise wouldn't it have stayed the same?

As to determining which gene controls hunt, you would be looking at DNA at the atomic level and I don't think that gene has ever been identified. So you would have to breed dogs that showed hunt to other dogs that showed hunt, cull, breed the same way, etc. I think someone else said that also. Now doesn't that really go back to breed the best to the best. And finally, by doing that, doesn't that create a dominant gene from a recessive gene. I may be splitting hairs here, it may not be as much as making it dominant, as eliminating the other dominant genes.

I'm breeding basically the same line as Stan so I'm very interested in this too! Is this right as for as dominant and recessive?

[bob huffman]

Yes breeds were mostly created by combining breeds all ready in exsistance. Also created by linebreeding mongrels as in the case of the Stephens Stock Dog created by Hugh Stephens. The Fox Terrier is a cross of English terrier and Beagle and then linebred to create a type that breeds true. I will try to explain recessive and dominant. Genes are arranged along chromosomes at a particular position, or LOCI. Alternative forms of genes called ALLELES may be present at a given LOCUS. Although many alternative forms of a single gene can exist, an individual can only have 2 possible types of genes or ALLELES at a given location, one on each chromosome. The chromosomes are paired in an arrangement for any living thing. Since literally thousands of genes are involved, the tals of analyzing is complex. Some ALLELES or genes are dominant and express an affect when present on only ONE OF THE PAIRED CHROMOSOMES. In contrast, other alleles or genes are recessive. Their effect is expressed only when BOTH chromosomes have the gene, such as the lemon color in a Beagle. If beagles begin to have many individuals with the lemon color, the gene is still recessive. Even if all Beagles were lemon colored the gene for it is still recessive because it take a lemon gene on BOTH chromosomes to express its effect. Don't confuse gene frequency or the number of the genes for lemon in the whole population, with dominance. The only way it could become dominant is if the gene were expressing its effect when present on only one chromosome. Dominance and recessive genes are determined by their MODE OF INHERITANCE and not by their frequency in a gene pool. These are 2 entirely differant things. As for 14 genes causing hunt, someone forgot to read the word " IF ". I used it as an example and said IF hunt was caused by 14 genes. The fact is that many human and animal behavior traits are known to caused by the number of genes present for that behavior. Hunt is caused by many differant genes acting together to produce a behavior. It is not a simple inheritance like the lemon color or eye color etc. There is no one particular gene for hunt, but many at various LOCI. With that in mind, we can still break it down to the mode of inheritance. Some will be recessive and some will be dominant. You are correct when you say to simply breed to dogs with hunt and then linebreed it to set it in the family. Another possible condition is PARTIAL DOMINANCE in which 2 genes or alleles combine their effect to produce a genetic expression somewhere between the effects of the 2 genes. An animal is purebred for a given locus when both genes at that locus are identical. When the genes at the same locus are differant, a hybrid condition exists. If a breed has all lemon color, it refers to its RELATIVE GENETIC FITNESS, which describes the probability that a particular trait in a purebred form will be present in a population. It is easily confused with the term dominance, but remember that dominance is a mode of inheritance determined by the laws of inheritance regarding recessive and dominant gene expression, and the laws of mathematics which determine the chances of inheritance of a particular gene. Just remember that a recessive must be present in pairs, one on each chromosome to be expressed, while a dominant trait or gene only needs to have one to be expressed or show. This allows for the fact that an animal can carry some recessive traits that remain hidden, such as the lemon color, until it is paired with another gene and is present on both chromosomes in order to be expressed in the physical or mental behavioral appearance of the animal

[bob huffman]

Anyone have a good cure for BRAIN CRAMPS? I wonder if that is a recessive or a dominant trait????

[Beagleman973]

Good explanation Bob! That does explain it to me a little better! One more question, wouldn't you say hunt is also attributed to environment also. As in how they are trained, exposed at a young age etc. So you could thereoretically take a dog that didn't have as many combination of hunt genes and make a good hunt dog out of him. But case in point, one that had more genes would be more natural and not have to have as much training. My question would be considering hunt in a dog, how much do you think you can attribute to genes and how much to environment?

[Joe West]

Bob: Your a total and complete as _:censored: Go ahead and teach me something like how you can tell how a hound will reproduce it's field qualities by observing them.

[wingpatch]

I will be the first to say this is way over this country boys head.
I learnd years ago not to mess with something i new nothing about.
I will not question or dought anything you are talken about. Bob Huffman.

A old uneducated cowboy from Oklahoma once said ..

" The only thing that is impossible is something that aint been done."

WILL RODGERS
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I just huntum and have a good time .