SELLING PUPS

[Windkist]

I never gaurentee anything more then health also, then you run into the problem of people who take the pup out twice and let it sit in the kennel for 6 months then one day there buddy calls and he wants to go rabbit hunting so he takes the pup out and it dont know jack diddly , so i dont gaurentee nothing.

Its just not wise to make a bunch of promises on a 8-10 week old puppy. I guarantee health on our show prospects. Thats all. I do guarantee that the puppy has no disqualifying faults but, beyond that I don't know if the buyer is going to get the puppy trained or not. What happens once they leave here is out of my control so, making guarantees about a dogs ability once is grown is not something I'd be willing to do.

Leah

[main event`s beagles]

we all know the two guarantees death and taxes. if the person has any doubt he shouldnt change money and shouldnt take any money if you have any doubts that are left unexplained. the main event.

paul can i get those pups back

[PLSIII]

CHRIS I WOULD SEND THEM BACK TO YOU BUT YOU WOULDN'T LIKE THEM HA HA ( THANKS FOR THE OFFER ) I HAVE BOUGHT PUPS FROM SOME OF THE BIG TIME KENNELS AND A FOUND SOME I LIKE AND SOME TURNED OUT TO BE CULLS TO EACH'S OWN BUT IF I SELL A PUP AND IT DON'T RUN A RABBIT AND YOU PUT THE TIME IN IT IHAVE NO PROBLEM REPLACING IT BECAUSE I DON'T WON'T SOME ONE TO SELL IT AND THE NEXT OWNER IS IN IT FOR THE MONEY AND BREEDS IT TO MAKE A QUICK BUCK . SO I DON'T HAVE CULLS OUT THERE RUNNING AROUND WITH MY KENNEL NAME PAUL

[TOUCHSTONEBGLS]

Windkist, Your search must have included every AKC dog with touchstone in the name, don't know how far back the search goes...!? I bred Ch Plain and Fancy's June Bug to Ch Starbuck's Hang 'Em High. Don't know if you know of the dog but he was the "real deal". I won winner's bitch 15" at the national one year with June Bug and a couple of years later she also won Best of Opposite sex. That same year Hang 'Em High won Best of breed. June Bug was starting to show from her pregnancy at the national. All the pups from both of her litters were show quallity and went to good show homes. 4 in one litter and two in the other. Both sire and dam were line bred on Ch The Whim's Buckeye. Dave Hiltz knows the quality of those pups. Finished one of the 13" pups with Hound Group 1st to complete her major wins. There was no major in 13" beagles but other hound breeds had majors. And yes they all finished AKC CHs. I don't know how long you have been involved in the beagle breed. Most likely not that long(late 70s). There is a big difference between breeding many dogs and breeding great dogs. No those dogs were not hunting dogs. That was a long time ago before I even acknowledged that it was important to have hunt and structure in the same animal. The Akc females that I have owned since then did well in AKC shows and my last show dog finished her AKC CH at just a couple of weeks over 6 mo of age at the Cleveland Winter Classic shows at the IX center with 5 point majors. She also earned several hound group placements. She was nearly silent on the rabbit track and was very trashy(Opened well on deer, cats, fox),she also lacked search and jump. She was a beautiful show dog and a great house pet but I did not feel it would be a credit to the beagle breed to breed her. I went through several females and considered quite a few others before finding one with both the structure and function to breed. Leah, Please understand that I have no hard feelings towards those who do breed non-hunting beagles. Just does not suit my personal goals. I do not see the reason for your effort to discredit what I posted but the facts are facts. Makes no matter to me whether or not you acknowledge them!

[TOUCHSTONEBGLS]

Structure is practical to evaluate at 7 weeks, hunting abillity is not. Most AKC show breeders price dogs by quallity of the individual pup. You seldom see females for $xxx and males for $yyy. Show prospects are more expensive than pet quallity pups. If a dog is purchased as a show quallity pup and then turns out to be lacking in physical merit (not training) to accomplish it's ch then the person should be given another show prospect at the pet quallity price. Seldomely will a person return the dog that turned out not good enough to show. With many years of experience in showing numerous breeds in AKC this is the common way of doing things. Hunting beagles must be looked at from a different perspective. You can not be expected to know what a hunting beagle will be until it matures. A lot more training goes into a hunting beagle than a show dog... Studying the genetics and the style of dogs will give you an advantage. Hard to guarantee more than no genetic defects or disquallifications. I would still prefer to have an unwanted pup braught back so that I can place it in a suitable home rather than having it land in a bad situation.

[TC]

Every dog from every litter I raised went on to its AKC Show championship

Dan i to Went out to AKC just to See as that is QUITE the statement and Not ment to disrespect you in any Way it is just that in My years of Showing And trialing Hunting Ect to make a statement like that is just opening yourself up!!!!

BEAGLES??????? If so give us a listing as I have never Ran across a Pup From Touchstone in the AKC Shows!!!!!!!!!
And if so that is Quite the feat as the average is 1 in 4 Less than 1/2 of the breeders I know have ever accomplished that!!!! and Would love to have EVERY ONE of thier pups Finish in AKC.

This was the Question I asked!!
To be able to Even Finish 1/3 of a litter in the AKC ring is a MAJOR acomplishment So thought maybe you were farther along in your program then what I thought!!!
We to Give a guarantee with all our pups on health issues and genetic Defects!! So far So Good

[Windkist]

[quote] Leah, Please understand that I have no hard feelings towards those who do breed non-hunting beagles. Just does not suit my personal goals. I do not see the reason for your effort to discredit what I posted but the facts are facts. Makes no matter to me whether or not you acknowledge them! [quote]

Touchstone,

I was not trying to discredit you at all. I would never do such a thing. I have no doubt you've made a contribution to our breed and you should be proud. You made the statement that in your litters. "Every dog from every litter I raised went on to its AKC Show championship" That is just not true. Thats all! I don't think any of us can make a claim such as that.

Leah

[TOUCHSTONEBGLS]

Leah, You only gave a partial quote to prove your point. Taken out of context you can say "That is just not true"(translated- your a liar). If you include my entire statement and most importantly the "in show dogs" part then what I said is absolutely true. Why do you continue to attempt to discredit me using partial quotes or whatever. That makes no sense to me. Can't you see how rediculous that is? When breeding for show dogs I hit 100 per cent. I do not take full credit for that because the people I conferred with to make the decision on breeding her were Bill Bush, Mrs Coleman of Colgren beagles, Dave Hiltz of Starbuck and several others. The vast majority recomended Hang 'Em High. That was based on both the pedigrees and the strengths and weaknesses of each dog. Yes even great show dogs can be stronger in some areas. And a few were of the opinion that I should breed my great female to their dog. Will always have some of that.
My current litter was bred with the goal of Dual Grand Ch in UKC and hopeful for at least one superstar to go on and become the first GRHBCH to win an ALL-Breed Best in Show. This litter is right on track for that, but getting 100 per cent GRHBCH is a very tall order. At one year of age it is too early to be sure of that, but I am confident that the two I have given the most field time to are right on track. One has a co-owner and may never get the field time. My bad! I sorted through many females to find one that I felt could produce in the direction that I want to go. Many people get a female at 7 or 8 weeks of age and then try to breed up from there. I think success is much greater by being very selective in the dogs we choose to breed.

[TC]

Touchstone wrote:Leah, You only gave a partial quote to prove your point. Taken out of context you can say "That is just not true"(translated- your a liar). If you include my entire statement and most importantly the "in show dogs" part then what I said is absolutely true.

Ummm,
Touchstone, I think you need to go and review what you wrote, Leah only went to AKC site and give you back a report of what is reported on their site, there is a total of 3 dogs that are CH's under Touchstone.... Beagles... OUT OF around 15 to 20 beagles listed under Touchstone. You are the one that is discrediting yourself... When you boast of such great feats, the best thing is you should at least be able to take the punch or back up what ya say..

I had myself went out there and did the same exact search as Leah did for this is a huge accomplishment to say these things;;;

Every dog from every litter I raised went on to its AKC Show championship

EXACT quote from you! You are the one that braught this on your self not Leah...

[TOUCHSTONEBGLS]

TC, I would never even consider making a cross if I thought only 1/4 of the pups would fit the format I was breeding for. Even if I was only breeding for show or hunt and not for both. It will be generations down the line before we can get litters of great hunting dogs that can also have a high percentage of AKC show champions. It is completely possible to breed a quallity field dog to a great show dog and hit one out of a 4 dog litter that can make it to an AKC show CH. Or maybe the AKC show dogs are still so seperated from the AKC hunt dogs that none of the hunt dogs have any show bloodlines in them. I would think the UBGF would have some potential dogs. Breeding show dogs to show dogs the percentage should be higher. I am so curious about your percentages that I will do some research on this. Not sure what has happened in recent years of AKC show breeders. This could be currently true. June Bug was out of a better litter than that. Dave did better than that and I believe Bruce Smith did better. June Bugs litter sister also did better. But maybe their numbers are not common.

[Windkist]

I don't care how many litters a breeder breeds.. Not every puppy in those litters is going to turn out. To be honest I can probably finish about any puppy I breed if I really put my mind to it. Even the ones that aren't that great. That doesn't mean that they are of the quality I would want to carry on my line with. AGAIN!!! I just posted what I saw on the AKC site. I am sure their records online don't go back to the 70's..

Leah

[TOUCHSTONEBGLS]

TC, This is what I originally posted. " In show dogs I would have replaced a show prospect with another show dog if it did not turn out to be show quality. Every dog from every litter I raised went on to it's AKC Show championship so that was never an issue." I edited the post so that it now reads ".....Every dog from every show litter... " The fact still remains I only registered two litters with AKC and they all became show champions. They were way above average and went on to produce great show dogs as well. I was not comfortable producing show dogs that were marginal at best in the field. Different strokes for different folks! As for attempting to link me with every beagle registered in recent years with the word touchstone somewhere in it's name... I can't think of a way to respond to that without being insulting so I guess I'll just respond with an appropriate little phrase that describes the things in life that really make no sense... "that dog just don't hunt"!

[TC]

Leah,
I have to agree with your statement, not all dogs that are CH's are deserving of the title, and I do have to agree some folks do have a better ability to present a dog even one that is faulty and CH it with out much difficulty. Now me on the other hand could be given your Parker dog and would have difficulty presenting him to his best ability, probably would loose placement. It is also the presentors ability to show the dog to their fullest potential.

I also agree that in litters it is Just a FACT that not all the pups are going to turn out to be the CH dog. Like you said some do go on and show that dog and finish it even if it took 5 years to finish it but do finish it.

I also think that there is the pups out there finishing at 1 year of age in the 15" class that go on to be 16er's but you never hear about that, but those lines keep producing those pups on and on. I do however see the lines that show the older dogs, that maybe are trying to get breed points that haven't gone over the height limit, again it is one of those things where you really need to watch if you are trying to produce a dog that will be competative in both venues.

The important factor with the field /showing and producing pups to enter into these venues is you do have to have a pup that is going to stay in the height standard because IN GENERAL a field dog won't come into his own till around 4 years old, experience and maturity sets in and then you will notice the dog takes a whole new turn in field work.

I do though think that there is a need for what we are trying to accomplish with the show field crosses to obtain the dog with a better build and a better built dog with the hunt that the breed was originated for. Yes there is gonna be those train wrecks, but those are life experiences, that will help you if you are wise enough to be honest with your self and say I ain't doin that again and dig a little deeper and look at what is wrong and look to find a correction.

I also believe it is possible for any litter to have a pup that will rock the wicket, I have seen a line that had only 13"s that I am totally aware of have a pup that rocked the wicket like he was stuck on stilts. So it is possible, and then have seen the Too Tall Sam;s produce a 13" pup so unless you know for sure which is impossible the genetic background of every dog in your line to know what is there, however being honest with your self on what is being produced and to the buyer is the make or breaking point to any good breeder.

If I notice something about a pup of mine that I am selling I will point it out to someone to make sure they are fully aware of it before they purchase the pup, I do not want someone to get the dog home then notice the issue and be disapointed in the dog, would rather they tell me to keep my pup. Makes a better home for the pup and a happier buyer to know you aren't gonna hide something from them.

[Mitch Gould]

I HAVE ONLY RAISED A COUPLE LITTERS THAT ALL FINISHED TO HBCH OR GRHBCH AND HAVE ONLY HEARD OF A FEW OTHERS ! VERY TOUGH TO DO WITH HUNTING DOGS AND IM SURE IT IS JUST AS TOUGH IF NOT MORE DIFFICULT IN THE SHOWS .

DAN,

YOU DID SAY "ALL" FINISHED IN YOUR QUOTE .I THINK LEAH AND TC HAVE A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE SHOW RING AND WERE JUST ASTOUNDED WHEN U SAID THAT ?

DAN U HAVE A LOT OF KNOWLEDGE FOR SURE BUT U SEEM TO THINK YOUR OPINIONS ARE FACT ,MAYBE THESE PEOPLE KNOW SOMTHING OR 2 ALSO .

[MGB]

Yes Dan, Mitch is right. You ARE full of youself!