misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

[Joe West]

DarrinG: Here's some facts to really confuse your image of me. I am neither republican or democrat (see if you can guess what I am). Most folks here about drive a nicer car then me, but lots of folks wear jeans and flannels just like me, I'm a trend setter in that regard.

Swinging is a fault for a definant reason and has nothing at all to do with field trials. It is gambling and just like all gamblers the swinging hound looses the bet from time to time. In fact 50% of the time at the least. It has nothing at all to do with personal preferance as I had tried to point out in my first post; but rather has everything to do with what promotes a run and what interfears with or does not promote the run. Personal preferances have nothing at all to do with it if we look at it from that direction. If we followed your position that personal preferances is what matters and not the run then what we end up with is a fad and we all know what that did for the brace hounds.

The word personal has no place in this type of discussion. Only what works and what does not work.

John: somehow your hounds got beat up on a bit from this. I have never seen them and am not prepared to say they aren't the greatest little hounds in the world. IN fact your hounds have nothing at all to do with this discussion. This discussion is simply about hound actions and about no particular hounds at all.

[Bev]

I hope no one thinks I was "beating up" their hounds. I just know John likes 'em hard-hittin' and fast - if they get a little loose, no big deal as long as the job gets done. John runs a different rabbit than us Yanks, tho'.

They key phrase in this topic is "your ideal beagle".

[Chris]

Joe, don't start that rule-book blindness again.

We all like different dogs, because that's just what we like. Sometimes that's just got to be enough.

Swampers and hare run different than cottontails. It's just fact. At times a dog needs to take some chances, or he'll get left out. If one of those floppy-eared menaces goes through water or over ice or a coal bed, a dog is smart to go where he can next smell it. In my book, there's no kudos for valiance when a dog is after a big running rabbit. A rabbit can only be so dead, and as long as that's the outcome let guys run what makes them smile.

[Joe West]

Chris: As I said this discussion has nothing to do with field trials. Are you saying that swinging is not a gambling action? We don't have swampers up here but we do have hare. Instead of looking for hounds to swing on hare and take the risk of a loss we look for them to reach when neccissary.

What is wrong with calling a faulty hound action faulty regardless of the fact that some beaglers might prefer faulty hound work to good solid hound work? What makes some beaglers prefer faulty hound work to good solid hound work? Certainly anyone can keep any type of hounds that they like but when does a fault stop being a fault? Is it when some certain person owns hounds who have the fault? Swinging is most definantly a fault. How severe the fault is in a particular hound depends on how badly it interfears with the run. There is only one way for a hound to run a line of scent and that is to be in contact with that line of scent.

[Alabama John]

Joe, what is the meaning of the term Tree Knocker? I've never heard that before.

I was just kidding my friend Phillip Smith on the rabbit hunting board about his close running dogs swimming out 30 yards trying to find a rabbit track that ended at the water.

I guarantee Phillip has rabbit dogs even though the run a different foot speed than mine, they get the job done just as well.

Phillip is a very knowledgable houndsman and understands that if his dogs didn't do that after a Canecutter, there would be an ending to the race.

His dogs do not swing on dry land, but, would you consider that swinging when a pack lifts their heads and swims out in different directions searching for the rabbits track to begin again?

If thet's swinging, explain how else you would prefer your dogs keeping the rabbit going, or would that be considered just the same as a lost or holed rabbit to you and you go jump another one?

[Joe West]

John: Sounds like your describing reaching rather then swinging. To clarify swinging is casting out too far from the point of loss without first checking at the point of loss. Reaching is gradually extending outward from the point of loss when the line is not found.

Clearly hounds MUST reach, but only when neccissary and never anchor.

Tree knocker is a term for a stupid dog who doesn't know or care where the line of scent ends and just makes big looping swings in an attempt to find it again. It's fast hounds who prefer speed over the line of scent and who spend much of their time off of the line of scent.

[Richard]

Boys, I am a southern , country boy, but I can't agree with John on the type of hound that he prefers. I hate a cutting, speed deamon that (IMO) will destory the race for the other hounds. I do love a med speed, close on the line and checks, about a 7 out of 10 on speed. Now, I don't hold it againest John for likeing the fast, hard hitting hounds if he likes them.

[Alabama John]

Richard, I agree with you. I wouldn't have a wild dog either. I have had folks go hunting with us who said they had fast beagles and what they had was overrunning while still opening and pulling the pack way off the line WILD dogs that moved around crazy, but, fast and quick, and ran a rabbit in spurts and jerks.

From now on mine do not swing, they reach! lol

A pack of MATCHED, correct mouthed, fast footed dogs is a sound and sight to behold.

I know dogs can be fast footed and run with few breakdowns and almost solid, but, just run a rabbit over more ground in the same amount of time. Mine do, and I know of others that have fast dogs that do the same. Some are Little Pack Champions.

Its like going from home to town in a wagon pulled by a draft horse or a Thurobred. (I started to say mule, but someone would get upset) They travel the same distance at different speeds, but they both get you there.
One is just more exciting to ME.

WE"RE ALL RIGHT as all our dogs get the job done where we hunt and run. Happy Hunting and running!

[Chris]

Are you saying that swinging is not a gambling action? We don't have swampers up here but we do have hare. Instead of looking for hounds to swing on hare and take the risk of a loss we look for them to reach when neccissary.

Joe, I don't see any difference. That's what I was referring to in regards to the rule-book comments you made. We're obviously not promoting dogs that don't have a clue where they last smelled the rabbit -- we couldn't consistently kill hare off dogs like that either. Call it reach, swing or whatever.

What I said, and am still saying, is that when scenting is good, and a dog's on a big running hare (swamper or whatever), there's no need for the dog running at a speed of 7 and running 99% of the line, when he could run it at a 9 and run 90% of it -- the rabbit is just as dead, and the hunt is a lot more fun.

When I see a dog like that -- that's insists on running the entire line (anchoring, not reaching or whatever) when he could go faster (and still not lose the rabbit for very long), I call them slow; deliberate and just as unsuitable to be called a gundog as a the tree-knocker you described.

With fast, aggressive dogs, there are going to be more checks, that's true. I don't mind that. I just don't like losses of more than 10 seconds or so, because then you know the dog is gambling unnecessarilly. If a dog doesn't have some checks he can't be trying very hard to catch the rabbit.

[Alabama John]

Well said Chris, you're much better with words that I.

[Joe West]

Chris I don't know what your hang up is on the rule book forget the rule book. Even without the rule book swingiing is still a fault. Here is the difference between swinging and reaching. The swinger upon reaching a check doesn't bother to check in that area to see if there is scent there but instead just heads off away from there gambling that he will hit the trail again ahead in whatever direc tion he's gone off in. He may, upon not hitting the trail start making a big loop but doesn't bother with the point of loss. The hound who must reach; first searches in the area of the point of loss and upon not finding scent there he moves out further from that point ever expanding his search area until he finds the line. Clearly there is a large difference in the two hound actions.

If two hounds of different speeds are both accounting for an equal amount of game then the hounds are equal. But it rarely works that way under actual field conditions. A slow hound can never be good because by definition he will be unable to keep a rabbit up and moveing under poor scenting conditions. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a fast hound so long as he's accurate. A fast and inacurate hound cannot account for as much game as a medium and accurate hound. Speed of the chase to a top hound is governed by the conditions of the day. No hound is capable of running accurately at the same fast speed under all conditions.

[bowhunter59]

if u like the way ur dogs run then they r ideal for u aint never gonna have the ideal beagle for everybody!because we r indviduals and we like different things!a long as i like my dogs and i feed them then nobody else should have a problem with them ! I WONT FUSS AT THEM CAUSE THERE DOGS R SLOW AND CANT KEEP UP OR I WONT SAY MY DOG CAN LOSE IT AND FIND IT BEFORE THEIR DOG GETS THERE OR THEY RUN SLOW DOGS BECAUSE THEY R SO SLOW THEY CANT SEE FAST DGS !!!!LOL take it easy on me joe i'mm little!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chris]

Chris I don't know what your hang up is on the rule book forget the rule book. Even without the rule book swingiing is still a fault. Here is the difference between swinging and reaching.

Thanks for pointing that out Joe. For a minute there I almost had myself convince that I liked faulty dogs.

[warddog]

Without a rule book what is used to determine a "FAULT"? An opinion of one may not be the opinion of another. I'm a rabbit hunter and my rule book is the gun. I don't care if the dog swings, reaches,skips or rolls on it's back if it brings the rabbit to my gun consistantly then that suits me fine. I see nothing in any of the beagle breed standards describing running "FAULTS" but I do see these in the trialing rule books.

[snowshoehareguide]

i dont judge my dogs too much the way they run in a pack. im more concerned what they can do alone. i never seen the rabbit that could whip any one of my hounds. i have to admit that i usually run two dogs and one is to run the rabbit and the other is to push him a little in this deep snow. two always go harder than one. and one dog is doing 90% of the running. the second dog is running in the path he made. can he bring the hare around. can he do it again and again . can the dogs stay in same zipcode as the hare. thats how i judge them in the conditions ive had lately. if we have a thaw and dogs can stay on top then i can worry about swinging and reaching but its not much of a problem lately. . so many beaglers all concerned about running in a pack , about out running somebody elses. rabbits arent really that dangerous. one good gritty beagle can take them and id like to see more dogs judged one at a time. im more concerned if they can run at all than i am with there style or speed. pete