Half Brother/Sister Cross??

[Tsa la gi]

Thanks Norwester1,
I was wondering at what % a person would want to stop these crosses. With that in mind I asume that a 30/40 % rate would be way to much. I will admit I am a some what enlightened about this matter but still do not have a clue as to how far to go. SO I`ll just keep on doing what I think is good and when I start getting 5 legged,1 eared, 3eyed dogs I`ll know to knock them in the head and star over. Also there was mention of dew claws, heck I can remember when I was young breeding just dog to dog of no name ancestery, grade didn`t know mom ro dad, their was dogs with dew claws. ??

[NorWester1]

Tsa la gi, you'll know you've gone too far when progression towards your goal as far as a finished product is not being met.
You'll have zigged when you should have zagged.
What this amounts to is that you were not selective enough in your choices that's all.

Try not to assume anything without venturing down that road so to speak.

I mean look at what those brace guys are doing. It's a radically different approach from just about every hound breeder I've ever heard of.
Their single minded approach to achieve their goal is a template for all of us to examine and learn from.
Just think if someone could do that within the style of dogs you & I appreciate
This is how strains and then breeds are born and brings into question the very essence of what breeding pure or purebred actually means.

It's entirely possible of course but one must approach the endeavor with an open mind, no preconceived notions about how far is too far until you've actually been there and done that.

Don't let anyone tell you how far is too far if you're happy with the progression of your breeding ambitions and you like the dogs you're feeding

[Alabama John]

Being very familiar with brace hounds from the past 60 plus years and even some up close, what is not shown is how hard it became to get a litter and when you did how small it was and even then how few lived. I know many Brace men some still alive but most running rabbits in the next life, that would call me all excited if their close bred female came in heat, then if she bred, then if she got pregnant, etc.

Anyone remember the screw tails like a bulldogs that developed so bad the tails had to be cut off totally or very close because they hung up on vines and briars? Lots of registered close bred AKC trial dogs had stubby for a name for good reason. Some do even today, especially those that have a higher percent of that blood. I've cut many of them bulldog tails off. How about eye sores, eye skin screwed up? Underbites, bad crooked teeth, malformed tongues, many other inherited problems.

Ya'll are just seeing the wins, Titles on papers and hearing the old breeders tongue in cheek BS shout "You have to cull hard" You can't have it both ways gentlemen!!!

Great breeders? Every one I have known didn't have any more great dogs doing all this super complicated, hard to understand unless you are smart like me breeding than any other average bealge mans breeding. It is a BS line to make someone feel big or to make their dogs seem special or to sell them for more money.

Most just had more pups so the odds were in their favor they would have more good ones in direct proportional %. If you had 50 pups to get 1 great one, he raised 500 and got 20. So, he has 20 and you 1 so he is 20 times smarter and a better breeder that culls harder than you!

Bull crap!!!

[Dr. Chris]

what can be accomplished with proper selection coupled with inbreeding and line breeding techniques

This I agree with whole-heartedly.

It's actually very impressive. Make no mistake some of those guys know exactly what they are doing and this somewhat exposes the pretenders ( breeders out there slapping dogs together without any real purpose or goal in mind

This I disagree with. DNA, COI and the technology was not at their disposal. They did not have a clue what they were actually doing, they just did it, and the field trials embraced it, rewarded it and endorsed it and so it caught fire and soon everybody was doing it. Breeders “slapping dogs together” is wrong too, but what they did was in the total opposite direction to an “extreme” which was very wrong too. There was nothing impressive about almost destroying the beagle breed.

What they have done is every breeders dream..... not to have brace style dogs of course but to be so effective at breeding, producing dogs so dominant, that to the rest of the fraternity his dogs are not even the same breed and in a class all their own
Can you imagine?

I think what they did was more like a “nightmare”. I don’t believe they were “dominate”, they were miserable failures. I understand the part about wanting to be "dominate" in our class of beagles, but thats the wrong word for them. They showed us what "not" to do, what methods "not" to take. And this is where AKC failed beaglers and almost destroyed the “hunting Beagle” by endorsing and changing the “rules” to accommodate this mess, all for the love of money, and all due to crossing the line from "line breeding" and turning it into "inbreeding" and nobody willing to put a stop to it.

There was nothing good about these dogs in any way shape or form. They created dogs that could not reason, make rational decisions, had severe health problems and were literally deformed and retarded. Their bodies were twice the length they should have been, they had these big square boxy heads, their ears were often high set, their legs were half the length of what should have been and crooked, their tails were either crooked or 3 inches too long or sometimes both and they cut the ends off pretending they hunted so hard they had too, they had extra toes/dewclaws and chests like a bull dog and they all had a shorter lifespan “Thank God”. This accomplishment was nothing to be proud of, it was disgraceful and something to be ashamed of.

These dogs were like if you took the individuals from the movie “Deliverance” and allowed them to have children with the individuals from “Hills have eyes”. Yea, they did create a “breed within a breed”, but it was the creation of a mistake and was the biggest disgrace to beagling ever.

This is the end result? Just think, the ancestors of these dogs on both sides at one time ran a rabbit right and was used for gun hunting. Inbreeding turned them into this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7xVOZax2_w and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdZ0WTIRxP8

[NorWester1]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here Alabama? Did the brace guys get the kind of dogs they were after or not....... I think they did.
Was or is there a price to be paid? Sure there was....... there always is.

Would anyone other than those wanting that style appreciate it........ no, of course not.

You wrote,

Great breeders? Every one I have known didn't have any more great dogs doing all this super complicated, hard to understand unless you are smart like me breeding than any other average bealge mans breeding. It is a BS line to make someone feel big or to make their dogs seem special or to sell them for more money.

Are you saying the average guy breeding beagles produced brace style dogs that were or are better or as good than those using the afformentioned selective breeding principles?
I don't believe it was about great dogs..... it's about setting traits and characteristics. Seems to me they surely accomplished that and what they did to get there is a great example of selective family breeding regardless of how much you hold that particular style of hound with distain.

You then wrote,

Most just had more pups so the odds were in their favor they would have more good ones in direct proportional %. If you had 50 pups to get 1 great one, he raised 500 and got 10. So, he has 10 and you 1 so he is smarter and a better breeder that culls harder than you!

Bull crap!!!]

Alabama...... although I hate cliches like this, the proof really is in the pudding as they say. If they were breeding for a different type, style. characteristics and traits than the status quo (the gene pool they were drawing from)....... there is no doubt they went thru buckets more dogs than the average fancier...... they would have to, to get what they are after.
The percentages would be ridiculously low.

BUT...... they accomplished what they wanted.
You thinking it's bull crap doesn't mean the principles and techniques used to achieve that end are not effective.
Quite the contrary actually.

[NorWester1]

what can be accomplished with proper selection coupled with inbreeding and line breeding techniques

This I agree with whole-heartedly.

It's actually very impressive. Make no mistake some of those guys know exactly what they are doing and this somewhat exposes the pretenders ( breeders out there slapping dogs together without any real purpose or goal in mind

This I disagree with. DNA, COI and the technology was not at their disposal. They did not have a clue what they were actually doing, they just did it, and the field trials embraced it, rewarded it and endorsed it and so it caught fire and soon everybody was doing it. Breeders “slapping dogs together” is wrong too, but what they did was in the total opposite direction to an “extreme” which was very wrong too. There was nothing impressive about almost destroying the beagle breed.

What they have done is every breeders dream..... not to have brace style dogs of course but to be so effective at breeding, producing dogs so dominant, that to the rest of the fraternity his dogs are not even the same breed and in a class all their own
Can you imagine?

I think what they did was more like a “nightmare”. I don’t believe they were “dominate”, they were miserable failures. I understand the part about wanting to be "dominate" in our class of beagles, but thats the wrong word for them. They showed us what "not" to do, what methods "not" to take. And this is where AKC failed beaglers and almost destroyed the “hunting Beagle” by endorsing and changing the “rules” to accommodate this mess, all for the love of money, and all due to crossing the line from "line breeding" and turning it into "inbreeding" and nobody willing to put a stop to it.

There was nothing good about these dogs in any way shape or form. They created dogs that could not reason, make rational decisions, had severe health problems and were literally deformed and retarded. Their bodies were twice the length they should have been, they had these big square boxy heads, their ears were often high set, their legs were half the length of what should have been and crooked, their tails were either crooked or 3 inches too long or sometimes both and they cut the ends off pretending they hunted so hard they had too, they had extra toes/dewclaws and chests like a bull dog and they all had a shorter lifespan “Thank God”. This accomplishment was nothing to be proud of, it was disgraceful and something to be ashamed of.

These dogs were like if you took the individuals from the movie “Deliverance” and allowed them to have children with the individuals from “Hills have eyes”. Yea, they did create a “breed within a breed”, but it was the creation of a mistake and was the biggest disgrace to beagling ever.

This is the end result? Just think, the ancestors of these dogs on both sides at one time ran a rabbit right and was used for gun hunting. Inbreeding turned them into this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7xVOZax2_w and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdZ0WTIRxP8

Every comment you made is completely subjective.
It's your opinion they came close to ruining the breed.... which of course is hardly the case.
They didn't and don't believe they ruined anything I'm sure.
They bred for a set of desired traits and characteristics using proper selection and close family breeding as their tools.
There is no question they were and are successful at this.

What they were actually breeding for isn't even relevant. It could have been anything. The point is they isolated the traits they desired and got to a point where they could consistently reproduce them.
If you want to call it "A Sound Selection Process Using Close Family Breeding For Evil Doing 101".... be my guest
I don't care and it doesn't change the facts that what they did worked for them and is a great example of how one can manipulate a set of traits to reach ones breeding goals even if you are the only one that will appreciate the characteristics you are breeding for.

Until you can pull the blinders off and see this "Doctor", you'll never have a firm understanding of selective breeding much less close family breeding.
But that's par for the course within the popular status quo.

[Alabama John]

NorWesterer, Good to have you back!

Their goal was the brace style of running only. They were blind to all else. No hunt at all. Notice all brace beaglers carry sticks for walking in a line and jumping the rabbit. Those dogs never had to hunt but were brought to the line after someone jumped a rabbit and hollared Tally Ho and the judge called out the number of the next two (brace) dogs to come forward and be put on the track then unleashed. All the other crap that came with it was not wanted so it was not advertised so the unknowing would buy the few pups and dogs winning. It was a big deal.

To undertake breeding for GREAT using that method brings on GREAT problems hundredfold to the great desired.
I want these breeders on here to see the whole picture that is not portrayed on papers or printed in magazines for them to see and learn by. Great is far more than how they trail a rabbit. Great health counts too.

Now folks on here are adding up percentages of various breeding techniques and I'm afraid they will do the same by repeating the old mistakes and actually breed into their program by bringing that old blood forward with the same problems we tried so hard to eliminate that those old line beagles carried. Sorta like digging up an old grave where the person inside died of small pox. May be 60-70 years later, but, Its still catching!

If you go back not too far in AKC, you are in those old dogs blood and their health problems.
AKC doesn't designate that they were brace dogs on the papers. Champion today can mean many things, so many different trials and styles of hunting and running, etc. but back then it meant brace and those screwed up dogs.

How many times I've read someone say I like .... dogs and am breeding for that in mine and I keep my mouth shut and think, if you only knew how that dog or line was so unlike what you want.

Don't breed to go back to them by increasing their percentage in your dogs!

[Ron Conroe]

you guys are beating this topic to death, he is gonna make the breeding anyways, so let it die.

[NorWester1]

Alabama John wrote,

Their goal was the brace style of running only. They were blind to all else

And..... they got exactly what they were after thru... once again, selection and stringent use of close family breeding. AND they were successful.
That is my whole arguement in this matter, no more no less. The fact that there were or are flaws within their selection process unrelated to their singular goal of the brace style of running is not what I was focusing on.

I do understand what you're getting at, however. For sure i'd be some pissed off if I bought a couple of brace dogs with the intent to hunt and the dogs had been misrepresented.
i can also certainly see the concern with tightening up on blood (heavy in brace) where various issues, health and stylistic would be brought again to the forefront in dogs where these issues are not desired.

You wrote,

To undertake breeding for GREAT using that method brings on GREAT problems hundredfold to the great desired

Now we're getting back on topic. What you've written here does have merit..... no question. However that is not necessarily a reflection on the specific breeding practices but the ethical practices of those doing the breeding.
In other words there is or was an aspect of their selection process may have been flawed.
With great power comes great responsibility...... isn't that how the saying goes?

I'm certainly not trying to come off as an advocate for the brace beagling fraternity. I'm merely using them as an example of how anyone can accomplish their goal to breed the kind of dog they desire, however that most certainly does not alleviate them from taking responsibility for said endeavor if and when marketing their product.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

I think this topic is fascinating--- why did brace folks just use bassets that were slower rather than screwing up beagles? yes i know to them it wasn't screwing them up... but something is wrong with a dog who just stands there and barks.. i would shoot it and buy a branko/patch/tuff/otis/gay/ranger or insert name of dog line who moves forward while running here: ________________


Within the next 20 years we will be able to dna sequence beagles and learn the traits and health characteristics we want and what we want left out to help our breeding programs.. Simply go to a data base of our dogs dna match it up with best possible outcomes... I watched a lecture on it not to long ago but it was nearly 100 percent over my head and i am a certified science teacher lol

[BCBeagles]

Alabama John,

Are you implying that by linebreeding or rather "inbreeding" as some call it will genetically take over the gene pool as it did in the times of this Brace issue? I ask in all seriousness as I am a youngster in this compared to many,LOL. I am assuming your view, from reading, is that "inbreeding" will personify the bad enough to continually genetically alter the species of beagles? Again, I have kinda lost track in this thread,LOL.

By concentrating enough of the old traits you can bring back the old traits?, in good and bad ways? I see your point of overall health, but I don't see the connection in this instance. sorry and no disrespect intended at all.
thanks

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

here is an interview frank reece the guy who started the gay line about his program....never owned a gay dog but i hear there good

He answered: 'Well, for one thing
stay away from outcrosses. They are dangerous. You've got to stay in the same
family (once you've found the family that suits you)." When I asked what else
he replied: "Stay away from the 'Walkie-Talkies'." Then he went on to tell me
all the faults of the slower hounds naming two bloodlines that were popular
in the hey day of the brace trials. Here I think I should exercise some
discretion and not name the particular hounds (like he did) but rather
admonish you hunters and gun dog fans to be vigilant and watch your own........


kinda neat

[Gunslinger Beagles]

words of wisdom from the past that still hold true.

[BCBeagles]

You still have to pick good hounds when you do it, regardless of the line. I have known of, and know some still, that will linebreed more on pedigree than actual hound power. That ain't going to happen with me. I am not going to waste my time on that, been there and done that, LOL!!

Lots of good posts for this topic!! Sorry, it has taken up so much time and some may be sick of seeing it. I, personally, love to hear all sides!!
Thanks for the quotes and all the information!!!

[Alabama John]

BC, yes on your first post and right on with your second post.

Frank Reece was just like the rest of us back then and was writing what he believed at the time. Like now, most beagle men didn't write books. All you young men can get of the past is what was written and that was very little. I believe now he would AMEN what I'm saying here.

Frank had some problems too. None created the perfect beagle.

We should let this drop as it has the danger of bursting some lines bubbles and I won't do that. I knew too many of the old timers that started lines and they to a man were great beaglers everyone. Can't wait to run with them again!