Check Your Patch Pedigree`s

[Bev]

How funny, Swampman, that when I was urging for people to calm down, be patient, and let calmer heads prevail, (and to let AKC do what AKC will do), I was called insensitive. Let me refresh your memory:

...NOBODY here said that "it didn't matter" and to "let the culprit walk free." Just because we aren't on here waving torches and swinging ropes doesn't mean we think your problem is insignificant. I'm just saying, IT'S DONE. YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT. All your bitching and moaning and damning the people responsible isn't going to change your CURRENT SITUATION one iota. The milk is already spilt. All I'm saying is FIX THE PEDIGREE and MOVE ON. Whatever moving on may be. There is no other alternative. What AKC decides to do about those responsible, AKC will do.

...and THIS:

Here's the thing. I haven't heard anyone say they thought it was "ok" to forge papers. I haven't heard anyone say, "your feelings don't matter." I haven't heard anyone say, "let the guy off the hook." Nobody has said that. Those who have replied who don't have a dog in this race were only trying to offer some comfort, and some suggestions on how to move forward from here. You guys are so busy being pissed that you can't see that. And as long as you can't see past your immediate anger, nothing will be done to get things back on track. And they WILL eventually get back on track if everyone stays patient, works together, and lets the 3-generation wash imposed by AKC run its course.

Please tell me how different is that from what you are saying? I was warning all of the dangers of the "torch-waving mentality" being displayed over this, and now you tell us that somebody has actually threatened to torch someone's house? I don't think it's me being insensitive.

As far as the banter going on, that tends to happen when a topic is talked to death and people get bored with it. I only know this because I've been moderating beagle boards for almost 14 years now, but if you think you understand this game better and you don't feel this topic is getting the proper reverence, I can lock the thread. I stickied a thread in the Breeding and Bloodlines, where hopefully some real communication will be done to locate the affected dogs and get the paperwork figured out, so it won't be hard to put this one to bed.

If you are truly worried about the folks who've been threatened, then thank your friend Chuck for insisting this whole mess needed to be splashed all over a well-travelled message board. A lot of good it did; I hope it was worth it.

[Swampman]

Bev,
No sarcasm was intended, just trying to make a point that I thought it was wrong to (for a lack of a better word) hi-jack the thread, because it is important to a lot of people with this bloodline.

Points well taken, but remember before those quotes, you said,

Personally, I don't see what all the squawking is about. If there was a screw up, it was probably unintentional.

and

And between you and me and everyone else, an outcross was probably due.

So, can you understand why many thought that your perception was that it was no big deal?

I know Chucks intention was not to get anyone physically threatened.

As for me, I have stated all along that all I want is to have the guilty parties banned from AKC, and that I hope AKC can straighten out the pedigree.
I understand that many of us were and still are, very angry about this, but we are all adults and I really didn't think people would start threatening others lives.

I have never stated or implied that I understand this game or any other, better than you.

Like what happens all too often, without the eye contact, facial expressions and tone of voice, words seem to take on an all too different meaning.

So to answer your question, how different is it, not much.
Kudos to you for trying to nip it in the bud.

Swamp

[Aaron Bartlett]

So what exactly was the purpose of even starting this thread? Its pretty clear that not many of the answers are known and it seems that maybe not many facts are known. The only thing I see that has been accomplished is stirring everyone up and upsetting folks. What did you really expect the reaction from some people to be? If your concerned about peoples reaction that should of been considered before starting this thread.
Im willing to bet that reguardless of what happens its going to cost owners of several dogs some money for DNA tests to get the mess straightened out. I doubt it will get fixed any time soon and I doubt AKC is going to foot the bill.

[Swampman]

Go back and read!

What reaction did I expect?
I expected people to be upset and want answers, I expected people to act like adults, I expected people to stop breeding that have this false cross in their pedigrees until AKC finds a solution, I expected not to have to repeat the same answers over and over.

I did not expect that there would be physical threats on peoples lives and property.

Before this thread was started, I posted very little, I think I will go back to sitting back, keeping my comments to myself and let some of you wallow in your own sh*t.
Aaron, sarcasm intended!

Say what ever you want, twist it around however you wish, no one has ever said doing the right thing was easy.

To all:
I have not disclosed the breeder, PLEASE, do not take matters into your own hands, be patient, and I believe as Bev has stated, it will all work out in the end.

I'm done commenting on this until AKC is finished.

Swamp

[Bev]

Bev,
No sarcasm was intended, just trying to make a point that I thought it was wrong to (for a lack of a better word) hi-jack the thread, because it is important to a lot of people with this bloodline.

Points well taken, but remember before those quotes, you said,

Personally, I don't see what all the squawking is about. If there was a screw up, it was probably unintentional.

and

And between you and me and everyone else, an outcross was probably due.

So, can you understand why many thought that your perception was that it was no big deal?

Swamp, looking at these 2 statements isolated from context, yes, I guess I can see how others would think that. That's just the pragmatist in me coming out. I just didn't use enough words to convey that I guess.

Many times over the years I've had to crawl away from the rubble, look around and say, "Now what?" After I figured out what "now what" was, I found it often led me to a better place. Not that I think screwed up paperwork is a good place, but you never know, once everything is brought to light and corrected, it may eventually lead the bloodline to a better place over the long run. Maybe Sire X ended up putting just that needed trait into the line that the intended sire couldn't...or wouldn't. Nature's a funny thing. Obviously everyone liked the cross. It just needs to be acknowledged on paper so everybody knows what they've got.

That's the way it goes sometimes; the best dogs sometimes result from accidental breedings. The shame is in how the paperwork was handled -- for whatever reason. By not documenting it correctly, not only did it create a cascading paperwork snafu, it may have deprived a relatively unknowner the credit from being a star reproducer. Even SR Patch wasn't as upset about the possibility of outcross by evidence of his posts. He too knows that bloodlines have their twists and turns, and will survive an occasional outcross, intentional or not. Common sense would tell us that the older the bloodline, the more twists and turns they are subject to have. It also tells us that one dog in a pedigree of 30 dogs isn't enough to undo a line.

So now you guys are at the point where you are standing in a pile of rubble. Or that's the way it feels right now. I'm simply saying the next move is to brush off your britches, look around and say, "Now what?" Start putting the rocks back in order and see what you have. Don't waste as much energy trying to exact justice -- that will be handled as a matter of course. Put that energy instead toward the cleanup.

As far as the feists comment goes, nobody was under the belief that the unknown sire was not a beagle, a Patch one at that. But the way people were coming undone sure made it sound like they thought their dogs were worthless mutts.

Now you watch. I'm gonna be hearing from feist owners claiming I called their dogs worthless mutts.

[Swampman]

I know I said I was done, but I must comment.

Excellent post Bev!

Swamp

[LR Patch]

I stickied a thread in the Breeding and Bloodlines, where hopefully some real communication will be done to locate the affected dogs and get the paperwork figured out, so it won't be hard to put this one to bed.

And at this point no one has touched that thread after being moved, just goes to show that these so called , want to get to the bottem of this is truly what they want , they want to stir $hi! and sling riddles , half are so lost and out of the know , just look at the way and what they post , they can't even read the thread and post a intelligent post or add anything that may or could help , they just keep stirring.

If you are truly worried about the folks who've been threatened, then thank your friend Chuck for insisting this whole mess needed to be splashed all over a well-travelled message board. A lot of good it did; I hope it was worth it.

This is exactly the case , I was forwaded some copies of some emails ( I'm not going to call names ) but atleast one and maybe both of the guys that started this was calling out the breeders name a few days before this thread was posted , my feelings were they were trying to stirr their posse's up before this came out , again stirring the pot.

Should the post be locked ? That I don't know , maybe folks could read and only add anything that may help .
It IMO should have been kept between the one's involved until AKC ruled , PERIOD .
Do I want to know what AKC rules , HELL yes , but they would & will contact any & everyone that needs to know , when they , if they do anything. If these things are found to be true by AKC , do I then think it should be made public , yes if the owner of the sire feels that is what needs to happen only after AKC does what ever they decide.

[Bev]

This looks like a good place to lock the thread. If anybody has anything productive to contribute toward the untangling of these pedigrees, please post it on the stickied thread in the Searching for Information forum. Best of luck to ALL of the Patch breeders in getting things back on track.