No, I do not agree that 50/50 is nonsense. You took my post the opposite way I meant it. In fact the more I think about it the bigger the role I think environment plays.
There are millions or billions of different genetic combination possibilities that help make the dog who they are. But the combination of possible environmental encounters, interactions, reactions, reactions to those reactions, and so on that also help to make the dog who he is, is probably almost endless.
I understand that you can predict some physical characteristics with almost 100% accuracy given the right circumstances. If the science is far enough along you will probably be able to also predict temperment or running ability with pretty good accuracy under the right circumstances. But those things can be changed very easily by environment. Sure the genetics is going to set map. But the map on most attributes is not carved in stone!
Would I prefer a dog that already has a good genetic map? Sure, it's going to make things a lot easier. But it doesn't guarantee it's going to be a good dog. Environment could take it all the way to the other end of the spectrum.
Truman, What exactly are you a doctor of?
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Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
Thanks Guest: Now I have learned somehting new.
Truman: Is that the rampant mutation you spoke of earlier? No wonder I couldn't find it in any of my books re: breeding. Enough of the word games though and lets stick to the subject at hand. With your background you should be able to contribute a lot more to this discussion then word games. It should also be apparent to you that I at least know what imprinting is even though I don't know too much more about it. Now maybe that particular learning technique can be worked into this discussion but you have to know that environement is going to be invoved in there too.
Truman: Is that the rampant mutation you spoke of earlier? No wonder I couldn't find it in any of my books re: breeding. Enough of the word games though and lets stick to the subject at hand. With your background you should be able to contribute a lot more to this discussion then word games. It should also be apparent to you that I at least know what imprinting is even though I don't know too much more about it. Now maybe that particular learning technique can be worked into this discussion but you have to know that environement is going to be invoved in there too.
Bob: I had trouble with my computer too, our problem is AOL.
Now I told ya not to get mad. Now you're starting to loose sight of the subject at hand and are getting more interested in slamming my kennel. You and I both know you have no idea what I do here so stay focused because this subject has a lot to do with what really goes on around here.
Ables East Coast Trimmer is a hound I've never seen. But, he sounds like a perfect example for this discussion. He inhereted the genes to allow him to run in the fashion you describe. His environment was such that he was able to develop those gifts to become the hound you admire so much. Now here's the part we don't know. He could have had every oppertunity and become as good as he ever would have been able to or he could have had some set backs and he MIGHT not be as good as HIS potential would have allowed. One thing is for certain though and that is he would never have become the hound you admire without experiance. On the first rabbit he ran he was not as good as as when he ran his one hundred and first. He could not be; because he inherited only the potential but had to develop his gifts to become the hound you admire.
A handler cannot teach a hound to run a rabbit; that is a learned thing that can only be developed through experiance. Certainly the hound can never be better then the gifts he inherits but he can never reach his potential without experiance. Certainly experiance in the field running rabbits is a big part of the complete hound but there are many other factors involed as well. That is why a handler must know what NOT to do, next we merely teach basic manners and then give the hound plenty of time in the field. Ables East coast Trimmers environment played a huge role in ALLOWING him to develop into the hound you admire. There could have been many things that might have happend to him through out his life that would have prevented him from becomeing the hound he was. The first one that comes to mind and the one that there is no denying is experiance. If he were not given plenty of experiance to develop he could not have.
That's environment.
Now I told ya not to get mad. Now you're starting to loose sight of the subject at hand and are getting more interested in slamming my kennel. You and I both know you have no idea what I do here so stay focused because this subject has a lot to do with what really goes on around here.
Ables East Coast Trimmer is a hound I've never seen. But, he sounds like a perfect example for this discussion. He inhereted the genes to allow him to run in the fashion you describe. His environment was such that he was able to develop those gifts to become the hound you admire so much. Now here's the part we don't know. He could have had every oppertunity and become as good as he ever would have been able to or he could have had some set backs and he MIGHT not be as good as HIS potential would have allowed. One thing is for certain though and that is he would never have become the hound you admire without experiance. On the first rabbit he ran he was not as good as as when he ran his one hundred and first. He could not be; because he inherited only the potential but had to develop his gifts to become the hound you admire.
A handler cannot teach a hound to run a rabbit; that is a learned thing that can only be developed through experiance. Certainly the hound can never be better then the gifts he inherits but he can never reach his potential without experiance. Certainly experiance in the field running rabbits is a big part of the complete hound but there are many other factors involed as well. That is why a handler must know what NOT to do, next we merely teach basic manners and then give the hound plenty of time in the field. Ables East coast Trimmers environment played a huge role in ALLOWING him to develop into the hound you admire. There could have been many things that might have happend to him through out his life that would have prevented him from becomeing the hound he was. The first one that comes to mind and the one that there is no denying is experiance. If he were not given plenty of experiance to develop he could not have.
That's environment.
Bob: Don't put the cart before the horse. Before you can select hounds for breeding purposes you must first raise them up to a point where you can evaluate them to make that decission. You MUST provide the proper environment for them to ever get there.
I don't know what training you used to give your hounds but all we do is teach them basic manners and then give them plenty of time in the field. That's all there is to do except to never do anything known to be detrimental to them. Training is really way less complicated then most would have you beleive. But, without it and plenty of it the hound will never amount to anything. I assume you give your hounds plenty of time in the field and so you see you are provideing a positive environment for them whether you know it or not. Make the environment bad enough and no hound will make the grade. Yes some can tolerate more then others and still make the grade but even they won't be as good as they could have been.
Bob I would be most interested in learning at what age you cull your hounds for field qualities and what you do with those you don't keep.
I don't know what training you used to give your hounds but all we do is teach them basic manners and then give them plenty of time in the field. That's all there is to do except to never do anything known to be detrimental to them. Training is really way less complicated then most would have you beleive. But, without it and plenty of it the hound will never amount to anything. I assume you give your hounds plenty of time in the field and so you see you are provideing a positive environment for them whether you know it or not. Make the environment bad enough and no hound will make the grade. Yes some can tolerate more then others and still make the grade but even they won't be as good as they could have been.
Bob I would be most interested in learning at what age you cull your hounds for field qualities and what you do with those you don't keep.
Joe, now don't get mad but your little sermon on ethics and staying on the subject was cute, especially coming from a man that called me a curse word on the board and instead of staying on the subject, accused a Dr. of being a phony with no proof or reason at all. You need to stay on the subject Joe. Your theory about Trimmer is a little shaky. He was whelped in 1976. The dog never started until he was at least 2 years old if memory serves me. He spent the first 2 years of life NOT running rabbits and NOT gaining any tracking experience. If he started at 2 years of age, that would be 1978. In 1979 he was All Canada 15" Male runnerup. In 1980 he was All Canada 15" Male. He made IFC CH 3 times. I guess he didn't need all that experience you talk about. He was also a great reproducer. Why? Because he had the genetics.
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roygu
90-10 or 50-50
How many think Dr. Truman is a phoney.
He first posted that he was from the University of Oregon, then posted he was from OSU.
He said he was a Doctor in research, then proceeded to belittle a book that he had never seen and referred to it as outdated. Sound like a scientist?
He then posted that he was at OSU, Pendeleton, Oregon.
Pendleton Oregon, according to Yahoo does not nave a branch of OSU, nor does it have a Labaoratory listed that deals with genetics.
There is no DR. Truman listed for the University of Oregon or Oregon State University.
You have the floor Doctor.
He first posted that he was from the University of Oregon, then posted he was from OSU.
He said he was a Doctor in research, then proceeded to belittle a book that he had never seen and referred to it as outdated. Sound like a scientist?
He then posted that he was at OSU, Pendeleton, Oregon.
Pendleton Oregon, according to Yahoo does not nave a branch of OSU, nor does it have a Labaoratory listed that deals with genetics.
There is no DR. Truman listed for the University of Oregon or Oregon State University.
You have the floor Doctor.
I had my suspicions on one of his first posts. Anyone with a doctrine would usually have better writing skills. Not that his were terrible or am I knocking him, but someone with that many years of schooling would be darn near perfect. But reading his posts and the lack of detail in them (that again someone with a doctrine in the field would most likely go into) was my next clue. Then I came to the conclusion he was just winging it and shooting from the hip. So I did the same thing you did. I went to the Oregon State University's website and searched for him. Surprise surprise, no faculty or student matched that name. However, I will give honesty the benefit of the doubt and again ask:
Truman, What exactly are you a doctor of?
Truman, What exactly are you a doctor of?
????
Hay now just hold a dad blurm min. I said i resemble that remark.
I dont know nothing about them there genes you boys are a talken about.
I thoght a gene was when you are a going hunten & you only pack one pair of blue pants. You know like, I only got a one par a gene, If you take two it's a teo pear of genes.
Now ifen i did want to know somethig fer sure i would ask joe cause i think he is one smart fellar
I dont know nothing about them there genes you boys are a talken about.
I thoght a gene was when you are a going hunten & you only pack one pair of blue pants. You know like, I only got a one par a gene, If you take two it's a teo pear of genes.
Now ifen i did want to know somethig fer sure i would ask joe cause i think he is one smart fellar
Bob: actually my theory on Trimmer is valid. You only mention tittles but not how well he ran. And of course he had a full year of running under his belt by 1979 and there is one more thing. You said he had no tracking experiance under his belt but not that he hadn't been brought out in the field for two years. As anyone who has raised hounds for a long while knows sometimes the late starter turns out to be a top hound.
It seems to me that Trimmer would not fit into your breeding program because it is you who don't want to put much time into the hounds. Trimmer may be a prime example of why you just might want to give the hounds as much of a chance to develop as possible. Imagine what would have happened if his owner had simply given up on him, that is assumeing he was regularly brought to the field but was a late starter. On the other hand if he was just left to linger in the kennel for two years before being given a chance to start there is no way of knowing but that he might have been even better then he was if he had spent those two years in the field.
Of course he had the genes neccissary to become what he was; I've never said he didn't but he also was allowed to develop his gifts and that is the point you keep over looking.
Okay I'll answer first but you have to promise to answer truthfully about your hounds. First we don't sell puppies, only started hounds. Somewhere's around the age of 18 months to 2 years of age we make up our minds about the hounds. If they make the grade they are sold or if we are short of hounds they are kept. Culls are given away as pets. Sometimes hunters take culls with no papers.
Your turn.
It seems to me that Trimmer would not fit into your breeding program because it is you who don't want to put much time into the hounds. Trimmer may be a prime example of why you just might want to give the hounds as much of a chance to develop as possible. Imagine what would have happened if his owner had simply given up on him, that is assumeing he was regularly brought to the field but was a late starter. On the other hand if he was just left to linger in the kennel for two years before being given a chance to start there is no way of knowing but that he might have been even better then he was if he had spent those two years in the field.
Of course he had the genes neccissary to become what he was; I've never said he didn't but he also was allowed to develop his gifts and that is the point you keep over looking.
Okay I'll answer first but you have to promise to answer truthfully about your hounds. First we don't sell puppies, only started hounds. Somewhere's around the age of 18 months to 2 years of age we make up our minds about the hounds. If they make the grade they are sold or if we are short of hounds they are kept. Culls are given away as pets. Sometimes hunters take culls with no papers.
Your turn.