Conformation in Mid-West hounds

[sbeagler]

I think the loin area has a lot to do with foot speed & athleticism. The standard calls for a slightly arched loin. Show dogs are very straight (no arch ) in this area. It may look better to some, but how a hound moves in the field is more important & tells us more about proper running gear than standing them on a bench.

many years ago my grandfather and i purchased a female fox hound bench champion. she never produced for us anything. My grand pa said from then on get the best you can that has proven themselves then breed to the best that has proven themselves to have it all over and over again in their history of being top hounds. He said there's no short cuts you cant be a tight wad or to lazy to travel if you want the best. agree the best dogs we had had an arched loin they could really move with ease and seemed to tire less

[littlewoody]

I think the loin area has a lot to do with foot speed & athleticism. The standard calls for a slightly arched loin. Show dogs are very straight (no arch ) in this area. It may look better to some, but how a hound moves in the field is more important & tells us more about proper running gear than standing them on a bench.

+1

[gwyoung]

sbeagler, since you asked me something on a different topic I will reply, I won't touch the straw grasping that is going on about the loin, But back to your question about what I have accomplished other than 40 years of having a good time , Probably not much to those who have to rattle off titles and just plain old places at trials to show who they are. ( I wouldn't be bragging about MOST of that stuff as I know what type of hound it takes to place and I would cull one that did, that's like bragging on a turd) I guess if a man doesn't trial he ain't much in your book otherwise you wouldn't have to ask what I have accomplished other than having a good time, it is obvious that being able to spout off titles and plain old places at trials are important to you and you do consider that a measure of a houndsmen, most will laugh at that . Do you think your places at trials makes you more knowledgeable than those who don't trial , why else would you mention it. You remind me of some guys when I used to shoot trap they would show up at local shoots( with just the good ole boys there shooting whatever they normally hunted with ) their shooting jackets with the fifty straight patches sewed on them, and talking about all the shoots they had won. I called them their scare jackets and that is why they wore them, I also got a chuckle out of it as it was extremely rare for one of the scare jacket boys to win, that didn't keep them from spouting off about all their accomplishments though. Let me be clear I don't think you being a trialer makes you one bit more knowledgeable than the farm boy down the road or the thousands of good ole boys that just hunt, it probably doesn't make you less knowledgeable either. but your scare jacket won't work here sbeagler. Any time you want to match hound knowledge start a thread and call me out. My post toward you was meant to be a humorous one and most who aren't so puffed up on themselves I am sure noticed it, but you wanted to take it elsewhere, fine with me start the new thread . Let's not muck this one up, bring your scare jacket over to a new thread, how about testing my hound knowledge for all to see in the process you can put some of yours on display. Oh, yeah, One of the biggest mee tooers has just recently popped in I expect more of them any time!

[WELLS WOODS]

I took a look at your hound gwyoung & he looks like Mid-West hounds to me & that's a compliment in my opinion. He has an arched loin also. I don't know his bloodline or running style, but natural foot speed shouldn't be a problem. Take a look at these Mid-West FC's on the general service section; Mt. St. Blue Bud, Pinnacle Hill Sport, KY Lucky, Noe Him By Ohio Reggie, Buckshots Dexter, Dago Valley Bullet & ARHA Champ Branko's Spotty Beast. You may not like the Mid-West or fast dogs, but as far as conformation is concerned, your hound looks very similar.

[gwyoung]

wells woods I will start a new thread and we can talk about arched loins if you want just chime in.

[S.R.Patch]

I think what you fellers are talking about(arched loins) used to be called "roach backed".

Ya'll talking about conformation, the most important part of a hound and what I'm not seeing in the pictures is "shoulders". The shoulders carry 2/3's of the hounds weight and support all of it when landing. One thing that is a "hint" to good shoulders is "length of neck", a good length to the neck is almost always conductive of good shoulders. You get a cobby or short neck on a hound and 9 times out of 10, he got steep shoulders and poor ability to absorb the shock of running or having a smooth gait. A good shoulder should be laid back to the spine at a 45dag from the forward joint and end even inline with the elbow, kind of a figure 4 shape. This allow the flex of a shock absorber and not the jarring effect to the hound that result from a steep or upright shoulder.

The loins are for supporting the spine and middle carriage of the hound, the rear quarters are for propelling the hound forward(drive/speed). Overly long rear hocks and poor muscle to the rear quarters is were you loose drive. Some hounds have what they call a third muscle in the rear quarter that gives them great leaping ability. Many of the English hounds are bred for, as hare go through many of the stone walls the hounds have to leap over. I've got a young hound called Rattler that can go over the 5' beagle netting, his leaping ability is the best I've seen of my hounds.

[WELLS WOODS]

S.R. Patch, take a look at the Camp Creek Gertrude post & look at Blue Banks Moon Pie. She moved better than any Beagle I've seen. What about her conformation made her move so well? Back, loin, shoulders? Consider she's 12 years old in the photo. Thanks.

[JHayes]

Hey them dogs that Neil posted in his picture early in this post are up on the stud auction...
Under Nbppa auction go check em out!!!

[Pine Lakes]

Pine lakes you are NOT correct when you say I have been vague about mid-west dogs conformation, I really don't think most would conbsider slab-sided, rat-tailed short ribbed, long loin and over-all long back vague at all, but once again we don't seem to notice the same things. You say show dogs do not fit the standard of a working beagle, now who is being vague, tell us who's WORKING standard you are talking about, ( don't leave that answer out of your next reply) So anyone who would walk your hound to the door knows nothing about the purpose of the beagle, I assume in your opinion if a beagle doesn't have an excessively long back, short , flat sided ribs and such it can't fulfill the purpose of a beagle, very interesting. So anytime your hound doesn't place on the bench we know why, they obviously according to you don't know their backside from a hole in the ground. O.K. this will be my last reply to you as I hope to keep things civil and your opinion of what makes a well built hound differs from mine and AKC. breed all of the long snakes you want , I don't have a problem with it and as I have said that poor conformation will not hurt them in the field I have seen worse run all day, as have most. Another thing you are mistaken about ( getting to be a habit) is about hounds doing well in the field as well as AKC show. Mooresdog just showed you one and you have apparently forgotten about it already, but if you want to see real proof and just performing under the gun is not good enough for you one has to win trials. I remember Herman Perkoz finishing Pebble Ridge Shadrack a few years back as a Dual field champion , he won the required amount of AKC shows and the required amount of AKC field trial to be an AKC field champion, that happened in your 43 years. ( Just a little something else YOU learned today. Seems a lot has happened in your 43 years that you haven't been aware of, My last reply to you as your trying to save face reply would probably only turn ugly. that's the way it normally goes! One other thing I hope you are not implying, because I never said it. And that is that show dogs are going to make better rabbit dogs in general than field dogs I never said that and I never implied that. I said they have the physical ability to do the job as good as any, and they do.

Your arrogance and ignorance is a bad mixture. The habit that you have is bias, which is probably based upon jealousy or blindness. Like I said before, none of these dogs from any format are perfect, but for you to single out dogs that run in Mid-West trials(which are from all over and outside the country) and make false accusations is worthy of argument when I know it not to be true for the vast majority. I've been as civil as can be in this discussion, but comments like "getting to be a habit" is purely confrontational. I haven't forgotten about mooredog's picture. I see as many flaws with his as I do mine or any other. The difference is those that you don't like have been bred for the field and those that I don't like haven't been bred for the field according to the AKC standard. If you like UGBF style hounds then I guess a reference to Shadrack would be appropriate for you, but not amongst the majority that prefers a dog to pursue with the intent to overtake and not continuously bark without making forward progress. No dog in my 43 years that can pursue a rabbit with the intent to overtake, like the AKC standard states, has been a dual champion. Is that better? As for the rest of the BS you wrote, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Maybe we can talk further about it at a Mid-West trial sometime, but I doubt that you've been to more than a couple if any at all. Just as you haven't stated that show dogs are going to make better rabbit dogs in general, I haven't stated that every dog run in a Mid-West trial is a show champion. Except for a rare few(you included), we focus on production in the field while attempting to stay as close to the standard as possible. The dogs entered in Mid-West trials look like miniature foxhounds for the most part. With me and most if you ask, the AKC standard far outweighs your flawed opinion.

[gwyoung]

Pine lakes flip it over to a new thread and I will be glad to talk to you at length , now. So now you are saying no-mid-west hounds have made dual champion, my point exactly Einstein. ( once you found out you were wrong I guess you had to run the UBGF hounds down like you accuse others of doing with yours, that's really rich there, buddy! Flip it over to a new thread don't just stand on this man's thread and mouth off! How in the hell can a man make false accusations when he says according to what he has seen? Once again Einstein start a different thread I will be happy to join you!

[Pine Lakes]

Pine lakes flip it over to a new thread and I will be glad to talk to you at length , now. So now you are saying no-mid-west hounds have made dual champion, my point exactly Einstein. ( once you found out you were wrong I guess you had to run the UBGF hounds down like you accuse others of doing with yours, that's really rich there, buddy! Flip it over to a new thread don't just stand on this man's thread and mouth off! How in the hell can a man make false accusations when he says according to what he has seen? Once again Einstein start a different thread I will be happy to join you!

I think I'll stay on this thread. I'm sure Greg won't mind since we share a common ideal and we've known each other for years because of Mid-West trials. The topic is the conformation of dogs ran in the Mid-West. You put them down with your statements and then justifying those statements with hounds of structure that are as, or more faulty then any run in the Mid-West. I'm not running UGBF hounds down at all, any man is free to keep what he likes, and certainly won't receive criticism from me unless he makes accusations about mine that are untrue, then it's on. My point is you refer to dogs that are as flawed or even more so than those entered in Mid-West trials. I read your stupid post on the other forum. Once again you have no examples, just a generalized line of BS. This is what is obvious to everyone. You have ill will toward the Mid-West, and you have that right, but like I've stated in prior posts these dogs are from all over the US and Canada. This issue is not a demographic one like you so conveniently want to make it. The one thing that these dogs entered in Mid-West trials share is the way they pursue their game. Some have different styles and abilities, but one thing is for certain, they put the worry in a rabbit and it takes a special hound to win a trial, let alone 3. Ultimately, I can't comprehend your line of thought. I've stated that their conformation isn't perfect and yet you seem to think that every beagle outside of "Mid-West" hounds are of proper stature.

Another point about no Mid-West hound making dual champion is that show beagles are flawed in their structure too Einstein. If that is what you want your hound to look like then best of wishes and I hope you get it, but you missed the point Einstein. One other thing, you should be careful with statements like "mouth off" with an exclamation point. Are you an internet bully because you have me intimidated. I'm just a little guy and don't want any confrontation.

[madcatter]

This may help
http://vagisil.com/products/vagisil-max ... tch-creme/

[Pine Lakes]

Thanks! It has been real itchy lately.

[mybeagles]

If I had my choice I would take a square beagle over rectangular beagle any day. The last couple years I've seen some really old beagles....over 15 years old. Lone Pine Rambo was in his late teens but still square and straight.

If anything, I would think longer legs to body length would make for more speed carrying less mass. When you get long torso it forces you to have a sleek slender frame otherwise they would be slow and cumbersome. If you stick with the standard you have a square frame, solid medium build with that freedom of motion.

Not sure how you can be certain it's the long body that's the source of the speed. I'm sure a math or physics guru could likely give a difinitive answer to that.

[WELLS WOODS]

All I know is that I want a dog like S.R. Patch describes; that can jump a 5' brick wall if needed. I hate watching a dog struggle to keep up; it's depressing. The Mid-West hounds that are winning are more athletic than the show beagles & the short, blocky built dogs; whether it's length or structure, I'll leave that to a physics guru like mybeagles said.