Kjohn
With all due respect, You need to go back and reread my posts and Mr. West
As you just stated enviroment & genetics work the same.
So that is fact but 50/50 is not nonsence ???
Gentics-Gun Dog Beagle
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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bob huffman
Ok I agree it is 50%. Then trianing would have a big effect on my dog. How do I teach it to quit over running the line by 5o feet? How do I tech it to speed up. How do I teach it to quit swinging on a check? You have a predisposed reaction to your envoronment and it is only bringing out those genetic predispositions. The environment is nothing unless you act upon it first. If a tree falls on you and kills you it is because you weren't smart enough to get out of the way. You may learn to avoid it next time but only if you have the brains born in you to do so. I never said that environment wasn't important. I never said I don't bond with my pups or teach them to handle. I do say that those things are a very small part of what makes a good dog. You try to put human dynamics in the place of a dogs life. A human has much more to learn to be successful. The higher the intelligence and the more adaptable a species is, the more time it takes to reach maturity. A human takes at least 20 years and has a lot to learn in order to make it on thier own. That is because we are not specialist like a lot of animals. Don't put eating donuts in the same cateragory as a dog running rabbits. You make it way more complicated than it really is. In humans, the environment is at least 50% because of all the social learning we must do in order to survive. It is difficult and a lot never make it. Totally differant scenerio and species and environment. We have been bred to succeed by using intelligence since we are not specialist in any one area. We have the ability to pass knowledge from one generation to the next much more so that a lot of animals and this is how we survive. We can also use symbols to show that one thing means another and this has helped us in our accumilation of a knowledge base over the history of mankind. We survive by learned knowledge where as most other animals survive more on the instincts they were BORN with. The mistake comes when you try to catagorize all animals in the human mold. Ego says we will do this because we think we know it all. I have yet to se anyone TEACH a dog how to run a rabbit if he don't have a born desire and talent to do so. Yes environment plays a role. I would say and important 10%. I only have to spend about 5 minutes a day bonding with my pups to the point that they will hunt in a pack with me because it is naturally born and bred into them to do so. I don't have to spend 50% of their waking hours with them in order for them to know enough to hunt WITH me. They already have that desire and just a little behavior training will insure they do so because it is bred into them.
Okay, In your examples I will agree with you. In a good proper environment the make up is probably less than 50/50. You are right it is not difficult to get a beagle that has the desire to do what they would naturally do geneticaly. But a bad enviroment could quickly stop him from doing it. The social interaction still has to be there for him to do what is natural to him.
Humans are specialists. We are specialists in intelligence, that is our potential to learn and understand things. And specialists in communication. Our ability to teach each other the necessary things to survive. In fact. I would say we are the ultimate specialists in the animal kingdom. We have even taken it a step further in that we have specalists in each field, ie Iron, Education... all of which are necessary for us to survive and thrive as a species. The farmer and butcher free up my time I would have used hunting to survive to do other things necessary. (Not that I don't still hunt, but just for an example. I no longer have to as a human to survive)
So here is the thing. If you put a beagle out in the wild or any type of k-9 at a young age who has never been taught, seen or heard another animal hunt. Would he survive? Would he figure out he needs to hunt all on his own. Some might, but would the majority?
Humans are specialists. We are specialists in intelligence, that is our potential to learn and understand things. And specialists in communication. Our ability to teach each other the necessary things to survive. In fact. I would say we are the ultimate specialists in the animal kingdom. We have even taken it a step further in that we have specalists in each field, ie Iron, Education... all of which are necessary for us to survive and thrive as a species. The farmer and butcher free up my time I would have used hunting to survive to do other things necessary. (Not that I don't still hunt, but just for an example. I no longer have to as a human to survive)
So here is the thing. If you put a beagle out in the wild or any type of k-9 at a young age who has never been taught, seen or heard another animal hunt. Would he survive? Would he figure out he needs to hunt all on his own. Some might, but would the majority?
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
Let's see, how do we teach hounds things....... with a young hound that might have a tendacy to back track, I run behind them, when they back track, pick them up and get them going in the right direction. After several times ENVIRONMENT and TRAINING helps teach them not to back track.
How to tighten up on a check. Number one, run it solo where it has to do it all, faulty checkwork will not keep the run going. Then brace it with a solid, tight check dog that will cut it to pieces when it gets wide. If it has the GENETICS combined with the ENVIRONMENT then it will tighten up.
Solo running will also speed up a slower hound, as it has do it all and can't depend on other hounds to pick up the scent. Then you slowly add speed to the hound by bracing with slightly quicker hounds.
More environmental results....re-read all the posts on using shocking collars to break hounds from running deer!
Spending 50% of their waking time doesn't equate to 40 or 50% environmental influence. That is apples and oranges. Time spent is just that, time spent, don't confuse that with actual training.
Finally, environmental pressure comes from other hounds as well as the trainer. The trainer influences this by what hounds he runs with. In your example of 90-10, I should be able to put a 6 month old pup with excellent genes down with a hard, fast running field champion out of excellent genes. And since as you say, it's 90-10, 90 percent of the time it will have no ill affect on the pup, but most of us know in reality that it would blow up this pup and create many bad faults. And that, Mr. Truman, is where I agree with you, many handlers, not trainers, do in fact ruin a many good dog! 90/10 just doesn't compute!
How to tighten up on a check. Number one, run it solo where it has to do it all, faulty checkwork will not keep the run going. Then brace it with a solid, tight check dog that will cut it to pieces when it gets wide. If it has the GENETICS combined with the ENVIRONMENT then it will tighten up.
Solo running will also speed up a slower hound, as it has do it all and can't depend on other hounds to pick up the scent. Then you slowly add speed to the hound by bracing with slightly quicker hounds.
More environmental results....re-read all the posts on using shocking collars to break hounds from running deer!
Spending 50% of their waking time doesn't equate to 40 or 50% environmental influence. That is apples and oranges. Time spent is just that, time spent, don't confuse that with actual training.
Finally, environmental pressure comes from other hounds as well as the trainer. The trainer influences this by what hounds he runs with. In your example of 90-10, I should be able to put a 6 month old pup with excellent genes down with a hard, fast running field champion out of excellent genes. And since as you say, it's 90-10, 90 percent of the time it will have no ill affect on the pup, but most of us know in reality that it would blow up this pup and create many bad faults. And that, Mr. Truman, is where I agree with you, many handlers, not trainers, do in fact ruin a many good dog! 90/10 just doesn't compute!
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
Let me put my thinking in maybe a better way of saying it.
I do believe that almost 100% of the plan is layed out it genetics. That is everything is genetically programmed to react a certain way in each specific situation. But that plan can be and is altered by the enviroment. Animals can be taught to react differently in each specific situation then how they are genetically programmed to react.
Example: Let's say a dog is genetically programmed to open on a cold trail. (Whenever he smells rabbitt he opens no matter how strong the scent is) His packmates begin to no longer honor him and he learns not to open unless the track is warmer. His enviroment has taught him to react differently than what his genetics have programmed him to do.
I do believe that almost 100% of the plan is layed out it genetics. That is everything is genetically programmed to react a certain way in each specific situation. But that plan can be and is altered by the enviroment. Animals can be taught to react differently in each specific situation then how they are genetically programmed to react.
Example: Let's say a dog is genetically programmed to open on a cold trail. (Whenever he smells rabbitt he opens no matter how strong the scent is) His packmates begin to no longer honor him and he learns not to open unless the track is warmer. His enviroment has taught him to react differently than what his genetics have programmed him to do.
Dr. Truman?: How about you give your real name and tell what you really do? First off you have no idea what training techniques I use and training CANNOT change in anyway the inheratance of genes.
Bob: You're not understanding what I am saying. My little scenario has nothing at all to do with selectively breeding an individual to adapt to that environment. It is to illustrate that the environment has an effect on the individual. Now don't get mad Bob you picked the fight and you got it. Get that tooth pulled yet?
Yes you did say that environment played a role but you said it played a much less role then it actually does.
Training is only PART of the environment. Time in the field is part of the environment, feeding, kennel, interaction with humans, everything the hound encounters is part of the environment. To answer your question directly about teaching a hound to not over run by 50 feet it depends. If he learned that fault from faulty pack mates you MIGHT be able to correct him by running him solo. You are creating an environment that will allow the hound to develop his natural gifts. if the hound just runs off the end 50 feet all on his own then you can't do anything because that IS his gift and there ain't nothing you can do about it. Either he'll do it or he won't. But, before you jump on that remember you had to get him in the field in the first place to discover what his gifts are, you had to create the environment for him to develop his gifts whatever they may be.
kjohns: A good environment has as much effect as a bad one, only in the other direction.
Bob: You're not understanding what I am saying. My little scenario has nothing at all to do with selectively breeding an individual to adapt to that environment. It is to illustrate that the environment has an effect on the individual. Now don't get mad Bob you picked the fight and you got it. Get that tooth pulled yet?
Yes you did say that environment played a role but you said it played a much less role then it actually does.
Training is only PART of the environment. Time in the field is part of the environment, feeding, kennel, interaction with humans, everything the hound encounters is part of the environment. To answer your question directly about teaching a hound to not over run by 50 feet it depends. If he learned that fault from faulty pack mates you MIGHT be able to correct him by running him solo. You are creating an environment that will allow the hound to develop his natural gifts. if the hound just runs off the end 50 feet all on his own then you can't do anything because that IS his gift and there ain't nothing you can do about it. Either he'll do it or he won't. But, before you jump on that remember you had to get him in the field in the first place to discover what his gifts are, you had to create the environment for him to develop his gifts whatever they may be.
kjohns: A good environment has as much effect as a bad one, only in the other direction.
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Truman
Dr. Truman: No you got me on that one I don't know anything about inprinting. I did look in all my books but couldn't find it. At first I thought you meant imprinting but then I figured a guy with your background wouldn't have made a mistake like that, not twice anyway. Now me or Bob we're just laymen and so we're bound to make mistakes like that but not a doctor like you. So doctor maybe you will enlighten me about inprinting, you got me on that one.
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Truman
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Guest
[ inprinting] A term used by genetic scientist as in a discussion on the mutation or mutalation of a gene or cell in the act of cloneingTruman wrote:No Mr. West You are very close.
Imprinting Mr. West, Now that brings up a very interesting tecknique . Seeing as you brought it up and use it some what in a different manner, Laymen to Laymen Explain the IMPRINTING tecknique.
Dr. David Truman O.S.U.
Hey Joe its me Bob I had to come on the board as dabo becuase this thread wouldn't work for me. I have a relative question. If you were to buy a pup, would you rather have it from 2 parents who were never taught anything and had been run with all kinds of bad dogs and all conditions and proved to run excellent no matter what, or would you want a pup out of dogs that had to be soloed and handle very carefully to reach their full potential. There is an artilcle about ABLES EAST COAST TRIMMER in the July American Beagler and the main thing that made him great was he could run with anything and still give a consitant performance. Packmates never screwed him up. I would be willing to bet that this was the only thing that made him great. A lot of dogs can run a rabbit and a lot of trainers can correct problems when the dog doesn't have the genetic traits to correct them himself. Whay Trimmer had cannot be taught by a trainer or experience, It is something he was born with that was differant than most dogs. I think you are not setting your breeding goals high enough because you don't think that certain things are genetic. That is a shame. We have lots of good trainers in the world but need more good breeders. I have trained as much as anyone but in recent years I have cut way back so as to put more genetic pressure on my dogs. Before it was alright if they needed lots of experience and correction, but not anymore. This is making my pups more genetically fit to succeed in the environment they are designed for. It is plain common sense but won't work for everyone. As I originally stated, for ME it is 90% genetic in my family. In other families it might be a lot differant and they may have to deal with the environment in another way. This is nothing more than a selection process but seemed to get blown into something else. Good luck!!
I think the answer is I just have a stricter selection process than you do. if they needs lots messing with and the environment is able to screw them up easily. I don't want to bred them and have pups just like them. I don't have a web sight and don't need to sell pups to keep my kennel going. I can breed 5 litters and cull all but 2 or 3 pups and have been for a long time. That is the differance in me and you. You wouldn't do that I don't think and so it is important for you to place a high importance on training and experience learning. One of the main traits I breed into a dog is grit. This is a trait that most Beagles don't have but comes from my experience with Plott Hounds. If they have talent and enough grit, they will make it in spite of the trainer or environment. Good luck!