Breaking from running deer

[AlabamaSwamper]

Oh boy, I had this argument with a former member on the RHO board and he didn't like what I had to say. Guys, ain't no dog ever "naturally" deer broke. I guarantee it. Just send me one down here and I'll prove it. YOu cannot breed deer running out of a line of dogs. Now, I agree that if a dog is not introduced to deer at a young age and he gets his nose full of rabbit enough that he might not be interested but I could have that same dog running deer in two weeks at any age. I have seen waayyyy to many dogs that were supposed to be "trash free" that ended up ruining a day of rabbit hunting. I have also seen dogs that the owner said would never run deer and low and behold, they ran them like they were born to. Those $500 rabbit dogs ended up selling for $50 and were excellent deer dogs. Same goes for coon, fox and coyote hounds.

I agree with Joe west that a dog can be ruined if someone does not use that collar the right way. Heck, if it will break them from running deer, then it should break them from running rabbits also.

I will partly disagree that someone can't tell by sound alone. I believe I can in most cases but I will always be sure. If you grow up running deer, then you can better tell the difference. The dogs will be hotter and should not have a breakdown, at all. I've had times that I wasn't sure until that first breakdown and then I knew it was a rabbit. Thats where the 1 mile range comes in on the collars.

Like a fellow board member told another the other night, if I can't have that "unbroke" dog running deer in two weeks, then you can pick any dog from my kennel. That's how sure I am about it. I don't consider a young dog that will run a deer a "trashy" dog at all. I expect them to run one if they come across it. That's where Tri-Tronics comes in and I will never be afraid to use it.

[Beagleman973]

Alabama Swamper


Bravo!! Bravo! Bravo!

I too have had that argument with others. There is absolutely no such thing as a natural deer proof hound. Like you, here in southern Illinois deer out number the rabbit population. I love to read the ads for stud dogs that guarantee to be natural trash or deer proof. Probably gonna ruffle some feathers here but........that person is either lying to everyone or he's a fool! I can't see how anyone who has been around hounds for any length of time, unless deer are very very scarce, can believe there is such a thing as a natural deer proof hound. Some may be less pre-disposed to run than others, some may be easier to break....but folks there just ain't no such critter as naturally deer proof.

[wingpatch]

Well i am glad to see that there are people on this board with some common sence...It do'nt matter awhole hill a beans how you break um. Broke is broke, And if they ai'nt there will be a day...
Wingpatch

[bunnycide]

First if Joe doesnt want or need to use shock collars then more power to him.. Its his butt that'll be tore up running through the briars trying to catch a dog running a deer. For the rest of us there's tri-tronics. I,like one of the previous posters would give up my shotgun before I'd give up my shock collar. And that's if I never used it to correct trash running. Ive spent countless hours with the dogs I have now training them to come when called. And it all works fine when they are four months old and know they're going to get a piece of hotdog when they come to you. But you let them get a year old and a little deer scent in their nose and Ill guareentee that they'll forget all about comeing to you..Im not saying you cant train a dog not to run deer by shakeing him and scolding him and hollaring "ware deer" but I will say this. I dont think theres enough hours in the day for a man to work a fourty hour week and still have the time to train one by this method.. Around here where I hunt usually what happens is that the dogs wont jump a deer till Im a good quarter mile away from the truck and then by the time Ive got back to the truck I cant hear them and dont know what direction they went in much less being able to get ahead of them to catch and shake and scold... But with 'ol TT I can reach out and touch him and correct the problem much faster. I've seen dogs abused much more by shakeing and stomping than I ever have seen them abused useing the shock collar.. Usually when I shock one he comes running back to me.. But when Ive whipped one then when he sees me he runs the other way cause he thinks hes going to get another whipping. And I dont need a man shy dog...
On another subject, I read on here the discussion about there not being such a thing as a naturally deer proof dog. Well im not sure what you would call deer proof, but I have see a couple that were hunted right in deer country with occasional deer runners and never took a deer or would even go with the pack running a deer. And they had never had to be broke from running deer. To me that's pretty close to being deer proof. And these dogs were hunted to ripe old ages. Ofcourse they are now dead so Im SURE they are deer proof now..

[TomMN]

I'm not going to tell you it is possible to breed deer proof hounds but I can tell you there are a few out there. I have a Treeing Walker in my kennel now that has never run deer. If you hunt her with dogs that are running deer she will come back to you and will not hunt with those dogs. She has never been broke, she has always been this way. I would bet any amount of money that you could throw her in with a pack of deer hounds and she would not go with them. She is ten now and she has treed hundreds of coon. I have had more than a hundred beagles and coonhounds and this is the only one I have had like this but it is possible.

[bob huffman]

I agree Tom. I have had several Plotts that would not run a deer. How do I know?? I watched them try to run one. When young they would try to work a deer track a little bit and always acted like there was something wrong with the scent. Acted like they couldn't get a good wiff of it, even when they jumped them out of a bed hot. Trait started in my dogs after I bred a grandaughter to her grandfather. I had beaten the world champion plott heads up with this bitch and bred her back her grandfather who was Plotts Dan-- Moores MT KIng linebred. They would come back to me and continue hunting for a coon track. For some reason these dogs just were not able to run a deer track. My Beagles will tree squirells if I train them on them, but will not run a coon track to save your sole. When they smell a coon, they come back to me looking spooky. If I were guessing I would say there are probably some walkie talkies that wouldn't run deer but heck, most can't run a rabbit either. The Beagles may not have dogs that won't run a deer, but I believe it is possible in certain cases. I think if everyone stopped breeding deer runners, eventually you could get there with some success. As it stands now, it is in the breed and without a strong effort to stop it, it will stay in the breed. The desire to run certain scents can be bred into or out of a breed. That is why coon dogs are coon dogs and beagles are rabbit dogs. Most coon hunters know there are dogs that won't run deer in the Coonhound breeds because their desire to tree coon overides anything else. I think it would harder, though not impossible, to achieve this in Beagles to the point it has been done in some coondogs because rabbits are a differant kind of game animal and the dogs used on them are differant because they don't have a desire to stop and tree. The treeing instinct interferes with the desire to chase fast game somewhat.

[MasonsBeagles]

I agree with the last post and have been checking this with some amusement. It is funny how the different ideas or reasoning play into it. I will give up my gun before my shock collars because simply they work for me. Do what works for you. I will say there are dogs out there that will not run deer I have seen a few in my short beagle career. But I will say there is no such thing as a trashproof hound they all have faults of some kind. If anyone can put me in one that has no faults then I am willing to buy it. Back to the shock collar it is the greatest invention alive for training dogs, my opinion. Working a forty hour week if I can put at least six in my dogs running then I have done a decent job. Know if I have to spend Two to three of that six chasing them down then I have not been able to put the time needed and will not likely be all fired up to go running again for a little while. Like big dog said to he__ with chasing down a dog. The hot blooded hounds that I run if they do decide to run the BIG BUNNY then they will have the lightening brought down on them. It does appear though that if you run and shake a dog then it would get shy. Where as you put a little electric to them they tend to come running. Hearing Aids my buds like to call them. Either way shock collars in the right hands are the best training tool alive. They save dogs lives, because their are fewer dying of lead poisoning and they keep me from having a stroke from running a hotblooded hound down. Just curious not saying anything against it but just wondering if those in favor of the run and shake method are brace trialers? You would definately have your work cut out for you with LP hounds on a hot deer track. Years ago I had one before shock collars mind ya that I had to get in a pickup truck to chase down she was a good peice from me when I realized something was wrong and when I finally got her she was over five miles away. That ole deer just didnt know the rules I guess that it was supposed to run a circle. Probably still was running a circle just encompassed the state of KY . Well to each his own and happy running.

[clippy]

i can tell you there are dogs naturally broke i own 2 that are and one is 7 and 3 ive jumped deer in front of them and other dogs have started them and they have came back to me....there are more broke from collars and methods than naturally strait but there are some out there and id garantee it i dont give a crap what state your in weather its alabama or ohio argue all you want i can tell ya your wrong....deer smell the same..clippy

[clippy]

there are tons of deer here and i also run my dogs in west virginia...ill agree you cant breed for it it just happens when you get a dog naturally strait...i also have been in beagles for 31 years i know whats goin on....apparently yuo guys have bad luck with dogs or your just gettin deer runners.....clippy

[Big Dog]

clippy you are right there are dogs out there that are naturally straight, as in they just have no desire to run a deer. However when anybody feeds me that crap about a line being naturally trash free they are full of it. There is no such line out there. If you give me pups from any line and let me take him out with some deer runners before he is hooked on rabbits I can guarantee you that he will run a deer, thus he is not naturally trash free. A great deal of whether a dog runs trash or not is how many rabbits they run before they are really exposed to deer, and what the dogs are like that you run them with. Most people that profess to have trash free lines, actually have trash free older dogs and the pup follows them and runs what they run. I would say it is more of an exposure thing than a bred in trait. There are pups out their that will never run deer, but they are a select few, and not the whole line. Some are easier to break than others. I personally would much rather break the dog from running deer than having to constantly have to wonder what he is running. If I don't break him then I never know what he will do. If I break him I know what he will do. Right now if a dog jumps a deer with my dogs some of them will come back to me and sit around my feet. The others will go to them and check them, but never open and they will not go. I like it that way because I hunt with different folks and sometimes they bring their dogs. A true trash free dog will not start a deer race nor will he enter one.


Big Dog

[Hare Hunter]

I have a 4 year old male that will not run trash. He has never been shocked or shaken or scolded. He just refuses to go when it ain't a rabbit. He does not come back to me, he just keeps on hunting, if I hear a dog open and Rip don't hark in, in a minute or less it ain't a rabbit. The other three I own have all been tained by tri tronics. I won't run em down anymore, bad back and old age have made a difference in how I train, but I do believe you must have a tattle tale dog or figure on covering some ground to be absolutely sure they are on trash before applying the juice. Hare

[warddog]

The method I use as cited in the 3rd post is an absolute no brainer. I see the deer, I walk the hound out into the field and cut them loose. I walk in the direction I marked the deer line but let the dog work and hunt on it's own. I don't act any differently than if we were rabbit hunting. As I live here and can sit in the living room and watch the field out the back window I have a pretty good idea of the deer runs. I watch the family groups constantly so I know where they travel. Every time I shock one I know it is running a deer because I have seen the deer before the dog ever gets a chance to smell it. When they open on the line I lay the wood to them. One last detail is that there are very few rabbits in this area as the hawks and owls patrol the open field as much as I do. This set up is 99.9% fool proof. By the way I could run them down and shake them but I prefer to stand there and push the button. I doubt if anyone would want to run them down or run to cut them off in these stripper knobs of southern Indiana.

[Hunt6]

A bloodline - line being beg naturally trash free etc etc


Nope I don't think so.Yes some dogs are born broke.I've had some as I'm sure many here have.I've had beagles and tree dogs that were broke when they popped out.Just needed to be taken to the woods or run loose around the farm.I've had some English and Walker tree dogs that treed as hard as any but sired pups that needed a Tri Tronics to be trash free.

A breeder that states his dogs are born - bred naturally trash free is blowing smoke up your backside ! I would not buy a pup from someone that stated his line of dogs are born - bred to be trash free.Yes some lines give less trouble than others.But free of trash,,nah.Don't ever beleive that line..
Hunt6 (David)

[Phillip Smith]

Joe why do you keep avoiding the questions? I know all I need to about shock collars and nothing you say can change my mind. I know people that have forgotten more then you will ever know about dogs. Real hunters. And they use the E-collar. Again what is your experinces with shock collars. The information your going to post, where did it come from? First had experince or from hear say and reading books. We know how a shock collar works and what results you get from them after years of experince. You still haven't answered one question about your experince with shock collars to be makeing all the comments that you are. I'm a lot more interested in how you learned all you know about shock collars then what you think it does to a dog. I was told when backed into a coner you would keep changeing the subject. Your sure doing that. If you can't answer a couple of questions about where you learned all your information about shock collars they why would you think anyone would beleive anything you got to say anyway. So for all youv'e done is avoid questions and prove you don't have a clue about shock collars.

[clippy]

couldnt agree more big dog right on........