Difficulties with a breeder

show dog · Post by **show dog** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:36 pm

I purchased a puppy end of May 2005 in good faith. I bought a 'show quality' dog with a contract. I paid $800 for her. It became apparent very quickly that the dog was going to have a breathing porblem (confirmed by different vets on physical exam). The last vet seen was at Toronto Emergency Vet Clinic. Cost me $128 for a 7 minute appointment and a letter, after I threatened them with legal action because it took 8 days to write a two minute letter, in support of my concern about the dog. The estimate to confirm the diagnosis was $1200 to $2300 (with surgical correction). I notified breeder within 4 weeks of my concern re congenital problem. They picked the dog up two weeks ago to see their vet. I had them sign another contract re refund of money, keeping me up to date on treatment plan and a date of tomorrow for final decision re resolution financial/treatment plan for dog. I haven't seen the dog or my money since. Carolyn

mn_beagleboy · Post by **mn_beagleboy** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:10 pm

That is what happend when you mess around with people who claims they breed for show. You should try buying puppy from a true hunter. Some people will give you a one year guranteed on their puppy. I myself will give the buyer of my puppy for two years to trial my puppy. If they don't like the pup between one to two year, just bring it back for full money refund. I can only do this because I only sale one or two puppy a year. The reason why I'm willing to do this is because if they bring my puppy back to me when he is one year old, they only help raise my puppy for me to hunt. You can't give a two year guranteed on pups if you breed more than two litters a year though.

Beagleboy

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:55 am

I feel for you, that sounds rough. I'd contact the authorities if it was me.

On a side note, why is it in the world of beagles, if you claim a dog is good for showing only it's worth 800 dollars as a puppy, but if it's bred to be hunted and it's good looking, it's only worth between $50 - $150????? Seems so backwards to me.

dk

Roy Pasmore · Post by **Roy Pasmore** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:45 am

Thats what small claims court is for.

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:27 pm

mn_beagleboy wrote:That is what happend when you mess around with people who claims they breed for show. You should try buying puppy from a true hunter.

Beagleboy

There ya go smoking that wacky weed again!!!
Sheesh, I have a two page contract that comes with every puppy I place. It explains, in SIMPLE ENGLISH, who is responsible for what and what is and is not garanteed right up front before my puppies ever leave my doorstep!!! Protects both the breeder (Me) and the new owner.

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:34 pm

Unfortunately, there are a lot of "rip offs" in the beagle world just like in other ventures in life. With you being a Canadian, I doubt if you could sue an American but if you could, I would pursue that line of action. Otherwise, write it off as a learning experiance and do better next time.

WrongsideRandy · Post by **WrongsideRandy** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:06 pm

With puppies selling for $800-$1000+............it's no wonder the USDA wants in on it and breeders are aginst it

Small claims works the same way in Canada as in the USA.......just sue em.

Peace,
Randy

Robg · Post by **Robg** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:40 pm

Take them to court !!!!
For $800.00 bucks that pup must have been some looker.

show dog · Post by **show dog** » Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:47 pm

I have a two page contract which the breeder is saying I have broken by the way I have handled the dog. I am truly upset by the whole thing. My beagles are part of my earning a living and carefully planned for and purchased. They go to work with me and are highly trained (for beagles). I would get a hunting dog but there is a large difference in temperment. I need the temperment and looks for the work that I do with the dogs. Carolyn

TC · Post by TC » Sun Aug 21, 2005 11:15 pm

My beagles are part of my earning a living and carefully planned for and purchased.

Well Let me say First I feel for what you are going through Been There done that Or Had it done to Us!!!
I am Sorry if you take offence to this BUT if you are in to beagles to make a living you’re into it for the wrong reasons and are just setting yourself up to fail!!!!!

ALL Breeding's and Purchases Should BE WELL THOUGHT OUT AND RESEARCHED. Did you check the line for any health related issues? Did you look back at the line and see if thier had been Any Issues or Contact any of the previous Owners or references?

We went through and still are going threw this same type of problem with a bitch we purchased 2 years ago All I can tell you is to contact a Lawyer Take the Contract into them and let them look it over See what they have to say.
Contact any of the other Buyers from these folks and see if they had the same type or Similar Issues.

Now About some of the other Statements that have been made About Show Breeders!!!!!!!

NO BETTER OR NO WORSE than Some Field breeders I have seen!!!!!!
I Don’t See how you Can Group them into their own Category!!!
A DOG is worth what you want to pay for it If you don’t want to pay $800 to a $1000 Then Don’t!!!!!!

I personally feel that a lot of the Field breeders Could get more if they were to try!!! They go through just the same amount if not More research than A show breeder Does.

Try Breeding For great Conformation and hunt See just how much Work that takes....

As far as Your Pup Winning In the Puppy CLASS competition CONGRATS
Just goes to show though How Looks Can be deceiving
Just because a dog has Great Or Good Conformation Does not mean that it is a good Dog if it Does not have good health!!!!

What good is the Conformation if it cannot run due to health problems?
Not trying to knock or belittle you just pointing out how IMPORTANT it is to check out the lines!!! The past Generations!!!! The History!!!

Sometimes We as Conformation Breeders WILL PAY more for all this information If we can look back 3 to 6 generations and see no Health issues and the Breeder Will Guarantee none then We will pay a little more for Stud Fees or a Pup Therefore we will charge a little more for our hard work.. We in turn put that money Back into our Hounds For Testing Eyes hips Blood ECT to guarantee the health of those to come!!

Just my 2 cents worth

TC
Crewse-N-Beagles

show dog · Post by **show dog** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:12 am

My beagles go to work with me, they DO NOT get bred to provide pups for me to sell. I have a business called Honda Books for Kids, where I help schools raise money to purchase books sponsored by Honda Canada. My beagles, aged 4 and 11 years, attend the presentations and are 'used' as an incentive to get the children invovled. My beagles are trained for therapy dog work, agility, field, carting, obedience and show. This pup was purchased with the work-ability first and foremost (temperment) and the show part is just something to do with the dog. It tales time to get most beagles into that working mode. I had a beagle almost 13 die in December that lead me to this work and love for beagles.

I did check with some people that are much more knowledgeable than me about bloodlines. No red flags waved. No references were provided, and I have seen the kennel names in the show ring over the years from the pedigrees- beautiful dogs, just what I thought I wanted.

I agree about dogs being more than just good looks. That is why I expressed my concern about this pup to the breeder at 12 weeks. I am not in the dog business to breed- I had a bad experience with the one litter I raised. In all good sense, I could not noose this dog and run her around the show ring with her snorting like a pig. The breeder cannot see this and is in disagreement with me completely.

I am running on a number of sleepless and tearful nights. This pup had the qualities I was looking for but her health is questionable, in my opinion and backed up by my vets. I think it is probably a fluke and possibly a one off thing but I got it, noticed it and tried to work it out with the breeder. I worked very hard to earn the $800 she cost me.
Thanks for all your input.

Carolyn Milne
http://www.indulgeservices.com
http://www.storydogs.net
http://www.booksforkidscanada.com

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:08 am

WrongsideRandy wrote:With puppies selling for $800-$1000+............it's no wonder the USDA wants in on it and breeders are aginst it

Small claims works the same way in Canada as in the USA.......just sue em.

Peace,
Randy

Believe it or not Randy there is not much profit, IF ANY, to get in on. Our show bred puppies sell for so much because it usually costs us so much to breed them to begin with. We do certain health tests like thyroid, brucellosis, and sometimes hips & eyes. Most of us choose studdogs that are nowhere close to home so we have to ship to the studdog or buy chilled, or frozen semen which incures added shipping & vet costs. Almost all of us have our bitches X-rayed on day 55 so we have an good idea of how many puppies to expect and to look for any problems.....and there is always the possibility of complications &/or C-section.

Stud fees in our circles average $500.00 a pop. Our litters are usually 3-5 pups and then we plan to keep one or two to show. Most of us take a week off of work to be home with the new puppies....then you have dewclaws, vaccines, and any other medications that might be required by Mom & pups.

It is not a money making venture. Ofttimes folks are happy to just break even. The goal is not money. The goal is live, healthy puppies and hopefully one to keep that knocks the socks off the Beagle standard and smokes the competition

HatterasBob · Post by **HatterasBob** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:57 am

Cindy,
The only difference between you and me is the cost of the stub fee. I pay $250-$350 for stud fee and travel up to 1000 miles round trip. I haven't check eyes yet, because it is not the issue it is with other breeds, ie. Chessies and Labs. Actually, there is another difference, I have a tough time selling double mated FCs pups for $250.

Carolyn,
Get a lawyer! Did you see the acticule last summer in Better Beagling "Good Samaritan Beagle". It was an acticule about a therapy beagle earning the title "Good Samaritan" from the AKC and the training it with through. I state this to show that hunting lines of beagles can also be therapy dogs, not just show lines. The dog in the articule (maybe the first Good Samaritan beagle) was sired by an almost IFC hunting/trial beagle named Awful Bawling Gabe. Gabe has Show dog looks and I had a tough time selling his pups for $250 as stated above. If you would like, I can put you in touch with the owner of the Good Samaritan beagle. It won't help your current situation, but maybe help you avoid another. If I had a pup out of Gabe, I would donate it to you for you noble cause.
Bob Keese

hesres · Post by **hesres** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:02 am

Show Dog, What was the vet's diagnosis?

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:44 am

HatterasBob wrote: Cindy,
The only difference between you and me is the cost of the stub fee. I pay $250-$350 for stud fee and travel up to 1000 miles round trip. I haven't check eyes yet, because it is not the issue it is with other breeds, ie. Chessies and Labs. Actually, there is another difference, I have a tough time selling double mated FCs pups for $250.

Do you have a website? If you have a website with nice pictures of your Beagles and your champions, their health clearances, etc., you will certainly get more inquiries from the pet buying public. Then you can get what your puppies are worth (and it sounds like they should be worth more than $250.00) from families that you have had the time to screen. I probably get two inquiries on average a day........I probably would send a puppy home with 2 in 25 inquiries........
Best of luck,