misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

[Joe West]

pj: I learned a long time ago to never brag up your hounds cause as soon as you do they'll make you look silly. I've also learned that you don't brag on beaten hounds you've never seen. Just curious, have you ever picked up a front running hound for messing up the run or is speed where it's at.

[Bob Graves]

Come on guys, our hounds run in sub zero temps and 4 feet of snow! You don't think a little ole' snake or gator is gonna bother them do ya?

Joe: I also run between the canal and the Mohawk, but there is quite a difference from what you describe. We don't have the shale, and the area I run has lots of brushy edges along crop fields, usually corn and soybeans. Also lots of Staghorn Sumac, swampy marshland and mixed hardwoods. Along with rabbit hunting, it is where I do most of my waterfowl hunting. A couple of times the river flooded the cornfields, not so good for the farmer, but if your a duck hunter it's like being in paradise. The rabbits tend to hole quickly for some reason in this area compared to other spots I hunt. There is a good (term used loosely) population of coyote and fox there, because of all the small game that abounds. We do our best to thin them out, but it seems like a losing battle. More than once I have seen fox carrying muskrats in their mouths in the area, so I'm sure the rabbit is pressured heavily as well. The Mohawk snakes back and forth in this area, in some places the river and canal are less than 50 yards apart, and in others they are 3/4 of a mile apart. Those little bottlenecks are great for posting shooters when the hounds get em moving. We don't harvest many rabbits there, kind of save it for the young or new hunters, but we do put the hounds down every so often just for fun. Every now and then the bunnies want to play and we get some good runs going.

[pj]

im not bragging my hounds i just know what they will do to a tight check dog...i dont like akc but for someone that does it its what you like and i wont put it down....but me personally joe i want a dog that stands out and does it all and makes the other dogs look like they just got off a turnip truck i dont care about pack work 1 ioda...yes for me personally speed is where it is at pack work isnt what im shootin for you only need one dog to bring a rabbit around.....this is why i like arha and ukc also pkc it awards indinvidual accomplishments not pack work....pj

[Joe West]

pj: As I thouhgt. In that case there is no way my hounds could ever hold a candle to yours, in your eyes. If speed is all that matters, being in front is all that matters then you will be easily pleased because there are plenty of racers and front runners around. All that you would require to beat my hounds is one who has more foot speed or who can feed off the front and you will be the winner. That is fine; but you will never know what a hound is truely capable of. In some ways you might be better off because you WILL be able to find the perfect hound.

The best packs are made up of individuals who can ALL account for their game when run solo. The packs that you see at the trials are not true hunt packs. They are individuals thrown together haphazardly to compete as individuals. A hunt pack is made up of all solid hounds able to run and account for their game solo but they also work together as a pack. A pack MUST be headed and tailed to provide an evenness to the pack to allow them to work best together.

I don't know about ukc or pkc but ARHA awards finding checks, don't matter if the check was caused by the hound or not; just as long as there is a check and it's found. It's no accomplishment for a hound to continually check and then find the majority of the checks that he caused. It is vary much an accomplishment for a hound to account for his game check free. Before you start with the slow rutine let me just remind you that I HAVE seen a fast hound do it. You have not, nor are you likely to when all that matters is foot speed. Speed is only an asset when it is controlled. When it is not controlled it's a liability. Even when speed is controled it is only one part of the whole that makes a top hound.

[snowshoehareguide]

joe . we are talking ideal hounds here there shouldnt be any checks. thats kind of how i rate my own dogs is how long they can run without one. and how long check lasts when there is one. its kind of interesting to me that when it is really tough running ive seen dogs run as good as they ever do for quite a while then make a permanent loss. i think i must have somebody doing something real wrong . couple weeks ago it was -35 below in the am. . dogs ran 4-5 hare in a half day. one they ran almost without any checks for over an hour then lost it totally. the others they ran hit n miss. before and after the one they ran so good. how come they can run one hare like that and not the others. the day before it was -30 and they ran hit n miss on the first one . then ran good on the rest . some for a good hour then lost them totally. these are hare and im pretty sure they didnt go in a hole. i was happy they were able to run at all. . i very seldom get a chance to see these checks. its usually in spruce fir thicket and you cant see the length of your arm. when out in the open where i can see them they dont make many checks and chances are the hares shot anyway. anyways ive found this whole thread pretty interesting. good points made by all. i run dogs on cat bear coyote and hare. for cat and bear im very interested in speed. the goal is to tree or bay them. on coyote you can bay them but id rather have a dog more like a rabbits dog im looking for a steady dog that barks good and the one that makes the least losses . joe you should be a coyote hunter. i see these blazing speed foxhounds. the very best ones are unreal. most i wouldnt take for a gift. all the stuff you and others have talked about can be seen real plain with these hounds. sometimes coyote hits the rd or skidoo trail. runs aways and jumps off. can you believe some of these hounds will run that rd for miles past where the coyote jumped off. the better ones will be found not far from the loss. usually they will straighten it out before i can. but anyways everything is magnified many times over. there is snow and its out in the open.i really get to see whats happened. a good steady dogs that doesnt lose will catch as many coyotes as some of these crazy dogs that are maybe 5 times as fast. lot of these dogs are bred by guys running a large pack in a pen. speed is all that counts. i see a big similiarity between them and beagles. i cant run my slow steady dog with these speed demons. but ive seen my dogs catch 9 coyote in a row. same time these super speed dogs didnt catch any. well ive really struggled running my bear dogs on bobcat. its simple ive bred bear dogs for the speed they can run a bear. a cat is more comparable to a hare. very little scent especially when they stay on top which they usually can. anyways i think we need to breed dogs to get the job done and not stay in front of our buddies dogs. speed is overated. especially when running game you probably arent going to catch or as in rabbitsand hare why would you want dogs to catch them. i have to have a fairly fast dog because in deep snow they are slowed way down. lot of my fast dogs stink on bare ground. will drive hare out of the country. i could get by with half that speed . anyways you guys keep it up cause i enjoy reading this stuff. pete

[FallsCreekKennels]

I think Joes idea of posting a deffinition is very good. the only problem i see withit is how would you explane fast.

[FallsCreekKennels]

or other thing like line control we all have different opinions. i dont mind a dog that is cold nosed. so then i would compare cold nosed to something different.

[Joe West]

Fallscreekkennel: Fast: The hound goes so fast at to catch or hole the rabbit too quickly to provide good spot. Medium: On a poor scenting day the rabbit is kept up and moveing and on a good scenting day they don't go so fast as to catch or hole the rabbit too quickly to provide good sport.

[tom/ desertdog]

And in this corner we have beagling battle man joe west&in this corner we have,[ if he would slow down i would tell you] next. good job joe keep after um.

[Joe West]

Pete: Certainly it was conditions and only the hounds know exactly why they could run one well to a complete loss and run others spotty. When it's that cold you have to worry about freezing the hounds olfactory glands and I'm sure that played a part in it as well.

[pj]

joe you dont know me and speed isnt all that matters i look at check work and hunting abtility.....i just know my hounds they are fast hard swinging check dogs...and when they find the track they hit and are gone as they hav alot of drive...i dont look at the hound in front and say hes the one.... i look at check work id rather hav a dog that was a little slower and better check dog...but when you can hav speed and checking ability why not hav both....pj

[Joe West]

pj: Better yet why not have speed and accuracy? If the hound doesn't loose contact with the line he doesn't have to find it again.

[pj]

with speed you will always have checks.....the only dogs that hav a good chance of not breaking down are walkie talkie dogs...

[Alabama John]

Joe, do you know how to post pictures of your dogs on this board? The ones you sent me were real good looking. If you do, would you?

[Ted Peercy]

Joe,
If you have one available, would you also post a picture of desertdog in her cheerleading outfit.