Iverimectin
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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tom/ desertdog
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- Location: laquet mo.
Iverimectin
Is it save to use on dogs,have any of you had any problems with it. Afriend of mine has two fox hounds they both came in heat and were both breed, three months later they both came back in heat. he took them to his vet and told him what had happend, the first thing the vet asked him was they on heart worm pervention, he told him yes iverimetin. the vet told him that it was not for dogs & it could very well cause what had happened. your thoughs.
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PAPPY(Guest)
I won't argue with a vet but I have bred and raised coonhounds for longer than I care to tell and for the last thirty years I have used Ivomectin for heart worm preventative.Unlike most I do believe that most of us are giving way to much in each dose but I have given one half of one tenth of a cc per dog regardless of weight per month and have bred gyps that were on it and continued giving it without missing a dose and never have had any problems whatsoever.Again I won't argue with a vet.
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tom/ desertdog
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- Location: laquet mo.
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Beaman
RE:Iverimectin
I agree with Pappy & Tom. I've used it for 15 years with no harmful effects. I stop giving it in the winter. I give 1/10 cc/ 10 lbs by mouth or in the ear. I know three Vets. well and they agree. I worm with Valbazen every four months given three days in a row. Don't worm your gyps with Valbazen when your going to bred them. Get them free of worms before you breed them. Beaman
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tom/ desertdog
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- Location: laquet mo.
guys i called 5 vets today sience i started this thread . i asked all of them, they all say. there has been no scientific study done on iverme for dogs, just cattle &swine.iasked if they would prescribe it for use on dogs. they all say that they cannot legally. i then asked them if they would give it to there own dogs the answer was yes. it is about 1/4 cost of other perventions for heart worm. thanks for your input.
Call those 5 vets back and ask them which heartworm preventative they can give you. My guess it is Heartguard or an equivalent. What's the active ingredient in Heartguard? Ivermectin (although Heartguard Plus also contains Pyrantel Pamoate). I'm sorry, but I can't see how a vet would not know that.
Studies have been done on dogs, since this link has a brief summary of toxicity results
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/drug ... mectin.htm
This one mentions some studies that focuses on toxicity in collies compared to other breeds
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/collies.html
And if you want an FDA study - done on beagles, incidentally - then you can look here (not done specifically for toxicity, but it does mention that it is safe when used as directed)
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/section3/200-270.pdf
Studies have been done on dogs, since this link has a brief summary of toxicity results
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/dxendopar/drug ... mectin.htm
This one mentions some studies that focuses on toxicity in collies compared to other breeds
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/collies.html
And if you want an FDA study - done on beagles, incidentally - then you can look here (not done specifically for toxicity, but it does mention that it is safe when used as directed)
http://www.fda.gov/cvm/efoi/section3/200-270.pdf
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tom/ desertdog
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- Location: laquet mo.
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Aaron Bartlett
- Site Admin
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- Location: West Central Illinois
Any vet that tells you that you cant give it to your hounds is tring to get in your wallet! I have used it for many years with no problems. I have heard that it will kill certain types of dogs with Collie in them. I did give it to a Brittany Spaniel for a while before I had heard that it would kill certain types of dogs and the Brittany died in less than a year. I dont know if he died because of that or something else but just some FYI!
I will have to agree with PAPPY about people giving dogs to much. Alot of folks I know give it straight and are not to careful about the amount they give. The way I give it is...... I mix 1 cc Iveromectin with 9 cc's of Propylene glycol. This mixture dilutes it down so 1cc of the mixture treats 44.4 lbs of body weight. This is how the Vets that do sell it over the counter mix it. Is this the right way??????? Who knows but thats the way I do it!
I will have to agree with PAPPY about people giving dogs to much. Alot of folks I know give it straight and are not to careful about the amount they give. The way I give it is...... I mix 1 cc Iveromectin with 9 cc's of Propylene glycol. This mixture dilutes it down so 1cc of the mixture treats 44.4 lbs of body weight. This is how the Vets that do sell it over the counter mix it. Is this the right way??????? Who knows but thats the way I do it!
Crane Creek Kennels
Continued
One cc of Cattle Ivomectin has 10 mgs or 10,000 mcgs.If we give what the vets recommend of the diluted mixture per 10lbs of body wieght,then we would be giving a 50lbs dog around a half a cc or 5,000mcgs.Hearguard used to have 256 mcgs. or close to that per pill.Quiet a difference isn't it.Will it kill a dog to give this kind of dosage?I know lots of coonhunters that give this one half a cc dosage and the dogs have done OK physically,but I would bet the kidneys and liver have suffered some damage.I have seen some dogs that I thought probably died from the overdose but I am not a vet so I can't be sure.When I did the study I called a representative at the place that makes Ivomectin and they told me "Do not give Ivomectin to a dog,Period" I explained to them that we had done it for years and would continue to do so.I was advised that if I was going to give it to "Give the smallest amount you can get down the dogs throat into the stomach." I now use a diabetic needle to draw up about a half of one tenth then finish filling the syringe with any kind of drinkable liquid to help get the small amount into the dog's stomach and give it regardless of the size of the dog.I have been giving this amount for ten years and have the dogs checked once a year or so and have had no hearworms.I had two cases of heartworms previously because I had quit giving Ivomectin during the winter and didn't start back soon enough so I know there are cases of heartworms in my area.
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tom/ desertdog
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:18 am
- Location: laquet mo.
guys, icalled a long time friend in oregon who is a retired vet, he still keeps updated on things concerening vet work . he has hounds him self, he gives ivermectin for cattle ,1/10 cc per 10 pounds body wieght . in the mouth. he also states that ivermectin for cattle is not aproved for dogs. i give it and will contenue to,. friend in sport tom 
It has nothing to do with making money on Heartgard, Interceptor, etc. Vets don't make any appreciable money on those products and are charged pretty stiffly for them themselves. A dollar per package sold will not buy them a new Mercedes. Until the regulatory agencies do the studies of cattle ivermectin use in dogs and approve it, they can't legally prescribe it. THC is a known anti-nauseant - try getting a doctor to write you a 'script for weed the next time you get the flu. The law says they can prescribe ivermectin when it's the ingredient in Heartgard because it's premeasured and diluted - no chance of overdose - no liability factors, and the warning against it's use in the collie breeds is documented.
I know folks use cattle/swine ivermectin with a measure of success in preventing heartworm but I will never use it. Too many cons outweigh the pros of the money savings, and too many questions in my head to make me comfortable with it. It's ineffective against most intestinal parasites - the dangerous ones, so extra worming is necessary. The margin for overdose is very small, and here's the biggie: I personally believe it is the cause of premature death in the beagle breed. There have been studies upon studies of the effectiveness of ivermectin in the prevention of heartworm, and studies of immediate ivermectin toxicity, but where are the studies of the long-term effects?
Beagles as a breed are suppose to live to be 13, 14, 15 years of age. Of the ones we know about in our sport, what ratio of hounds actually make it to that age? I know everyone can cite this dog or that is still kickin' at 14 yrs of age and was kept on ivermectin, but how many dogs are found dead in the kennel at age 8 or 9 (or younger) with no apparent cause? I'm assuming we beaglers take as good of care of our hounds as anyone so what's causing this? Are we running them to an early death? I don't think so.
Take a few minutes and make a mental note of some of the well-known hounds that have passed on within the last 3-4 years. How old were they when they died? What did they die of? We don't know in most of the cases. Natural causes - - - - - at the age of 8? That's half their life expectancy. I'm not talking about the ones that get killed - I know we are a higher risk group for that - I'm talking about the hounds that are found in the kennel dead. And the not-so-well-known hounds..... If you have been a beagler for many years and kept many hounds, do an analysis of your own kennels. What's the AVERAGE life span of the beagles you've owned? List them all out and at what age they died. What's the ratio of beagles you've owned that lived to be 12-15 years of age compared to the ones that did not?
This post is not designed to jump anyone's case, but maybe to cause some doubt and get folks to thinking about it. I've thought about it a lot. I have absolutely no scientific data to support my opinion, I'll say that right up front, but my gut feeling is that ivermectin plays a large part in many of these middle-age deaths - whether it's from years of "slightly over-dosing", putting it in the mouth and then again in the ears (it all gets absorbed into the system), or a few accidental overdoses from which we believe the hounds luckily rebounded. I think the repeated marginal mistakes - known and unknown eventually take its toll.
I've posted these sites before, but again for the newbies:
http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases ... tiella.htm
http://www.abvt.org/liverm.html
http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/a ... artID=1169
http://www.petfinder.org/journalindex.c ... .34.15.txt
...and in case you aren't bored to tears already, here's a link that shows where even cattle cannot metabolize ivermectin and the residues build up in the liver and tissues. Long term studies will not likely occur because we don't want a long life for cattle. As soon as they're big enough and fat enough, they will go to slaughter anyway.
http://www.emea.eu.int/pdfs/vet/mrls/017996en.pdf
Drug companies won't agree with my suspicions and neither will most of the veterinary community, so I don't expect many folks here to agree with me either, but I still smell a rat and I can't get past it. So, here's an opposing view of the use of ivermectin. Perhaps it will make for interesting reading.
I know folks use cattle/swine ivermectin with a measure of success in preventing heartworm but I will never use it. Too many cons outweigh the pros of the money savings, and too many questions in my head to make me comfortable with it. It's ineffective against most intestinal parasites - the dangerous ones, so extra worming is necessary. The margin for overdose is very small, and here's the biggie: I personally believe it is the cause of premature death in the beagle breed. There have been studies upon studies of the effectiveness of ivermectin in the prevention of heartworm, and studies of immediate ivermectin toxicity, but where are the studies of the long-term effects?
Beagles as a breed are suppose to live to be 13, 14, 15 years of age. Of the ones we know about in our sport, what ratio of hounds actually make it to that age? I know everyone can cite this dog or that is still kickin' at 14 yrs of age and was kept on ivermectin, but how many dogs are found dead in the kennel at age 8 or 9 (or younger) with no apparent cause? I'm assuming we beaglers take as good of care of our hounds as anyone so what's causing this? Are we running them to an early death? I don't think so.
Take a few minutes and make a mental note of some of the well-known hounds that have passed on within the last 3-4 years. How old were they when they died? What did they die of? We don't know in most of the cases. Natural causes - - - - - at the age of 8? That's half their life expectancy. I'm not talking about the ones that get killed - I know we are a higher risk group for that - I'm talking about the hounds that are found in the kennel dead. And the not-so-well-known hounds..... If you have been a beagler for many years and kept many hounds, do an analysis of your own kennels. What's the AVERAGE life span of the beagles you've owned? List them all out and at what age they died. What's the ratio of beagles you've owned that lived to be 12-15 years of age compared to the ones that did not?
This post is not designed to jump anyone's case, but maybe to cause some doubt and get folks to thinking about it. I've thought about it a lot. I have absolutely no scientific data to support my opinion, I'll say that right up front, but my gut feeling is that ivermectin plays a large part in many of these middle-age deaths - whether it's from years of "slightly over-dosing", putting it in the mouth and then again in the ears (it all gets absorbed into the system), or a few accidental overdoses from which we believe the hounds luckily rebounded. I think the repeated marginal mistakes - known and unknown eventually take its toll.
I've posted these sites before, but again for the newbies:
http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases ... tiella.htm
http://www.abvt.org/liverm.html
http://petplace.netscape.com/articles/a ... artID=1169
http://www.petfinder.org/journalindex.c ... .34.15.txt
...and in case you aren't bored to tears already, here's a link that shows where even cattle cannot metabolize ivermectin and the residues build up in the liver and tissues. Long term studies will not likely occur because we don't want a long life for cattle. As soon as they're big enough and fat enough, they will go to slaughter anyway.
http://www.emea.eu.int/pdfs/vet/mrls/017996en.pdf
Drug companies won't agree with my suspicions and neither will most of the veterinary community, so I don't expect many folks here to agree with me either, but I still smell a rat and I can't get past it. So, here's an opposing view of the use of ivermectin. Perhaps it will make for interesting reading.
Good Post Bev,
I agree with most of it and that's why I say that most folks overdose with the amount of Ivermectin.Cattle Ivermectin is 1% and so is the Ivermectin used in Heartguard(Or was when I did my study)By giving one half of one tenth of a cc I get just about the same identical dosage that is in Heartguard.I know lots of houndfolk that loose a hound around 8 or 9 and claim that they were just hunted to hard all their lives but I do not believe that for a minute.I know lots of hounds that are still going strong at 11 that have been hunted just as hard.I have had two hounds,one in the past and one now that have come down with cancer at around 10 years old and will always wonder if the Ivermectin is maybe causing this.I do know it is hard on the kidneys and liver but so would the Heartguard.There is another medication that gets hearworms as well as any kind of worm a dog can get but I can't think of the name of it and it is very expensive,to expensive for me.I agree that something needs to be done to get folks to thinking about the amount of the doseage the vets are recommending.I could never figure out why they would recommend a heavier doseage than what's in Heartguard if it has enough to do the job.
I agree with most of it and that's why I say that most folks overdose with the amount of Ivermectin.Cattle Ivermectin is 1% and so is the Ivermectin used in Heartguard(Or was when I did my study)By giving one half of one tenth of a cc I get just about the same identical dosage that is in Heartguard.I know lots of houndfolk that loose a hound around 8 or 9 and claim that they were just hunted to hard all their lives but I do not believe that for a minute.I know lots of hounds that are still going strong at 11 that have been hunted just as hard.I have had two hounds,one in the past and one now that have come down with cancer at around 10 years old and will always wonder if the Ivermectin is maybe causing this.I do know it is hard on the kidneys and liver but so would the Heartguard.There is another medication that gets hearworms as well as any kind of worm a dog can get but I can't think of the name of it and it is very expensive,to expensive for me.I agree that something needs to be done to get folks to thinking about the amount of the doseage the vets are recommending.I could never figure out why they would recommend a heavier doseage than what's in Heartguard if it has enough to do the job.