misunderstandings over defining your ideal beagle?

Beagleman973 · Post by **Beagleman973** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:42 pm

Joe I still agree with you! There is no way a hound that swings can beat a good line control hound that doesn't have any faults. The other thing is just like you said......line control DOES NOT equal a slow dog. My hounds are fairly quick and they have good line control. I too have seen some very fast hounds that ran nearly check free! Why? Line control.

Speed is not what we're talking about. It's faults! A hound that doesn't swing, have good line control does not equal a slow hound. In the long run a fault hound, tho he may be faster than greased lightning, will slow the chase down more than other hounds. Why, because he's creating checks!

pj · Post by pj » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:32 pm

joe how you figure equal dogsa swinger will lose... and how is swinging a fault..those are different traits and charicteristics of a hound which is bred into them....it depends alot on trackin to joe as the conditions would prevale for a hound...well if you say swinging is a fault i can look at it the same way i could see tight check work as a fault....thats what ur sayin.. i wont a dog to hit and go not pick....as a tight check dog takes time to reach, a swinger will have done swong out and hit the track where its hot...where a tight check dog willl have to work the track to the point of which its hot enought for him to bark....and that might be 50 yards later for the reacher when the swinger had it hit and presser on the rabbit...
pj.

pj · Post by pj » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:38 pm

bealgeman your right in some respects as there are swingers that do create checks but im talkin the hounds that i own that are fast and CAN RUN A TRACK...NOT DOGS THAT CANT KEEP THE LINE MOVIN....my dogs dont break down very often.....but id love to run with you guys and your holeblowers and teach them how to run a rabbit with speed and accuracy also with fast check work.... as im not nockin your dogs you like them you feed them but a line dog will be beat by swingers it is inevitable, it certain conditons...pj

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:44 pm

DG TX: I don't know if what you say about sour grapes is true or not all I can say is that when Mr. Watson said he didn't like trials he laid out the reasons why he didn't like them and then made suggestions as to what he thought they should do. It's in that book with Dad Holcombe.

PJ: already went over why it's a fault before. It's a gamble the hounds take. What happens when the hunds swing and the rabbit is sitting tight? Or if the rabbit turned in another direction?

What makes you beleive it takes longer to get a check at the point of loss then it does to find a line that the hounds don't know where it is? The only time the hounds have to reach is when there is no scent in the check area. They ain't layen down and taken a nap they're trying to catch the rabbit it doesn't take long for them to check the point of loss and if there is no indication of direction immediatly fan out to find the scent. It's quicker that way then it is for hounds to find a line that they don't know where it is unless the swinger gets lucky.

Hole Blowers? I'll try this again. Swining is not about foot speed. If you had read my posts you would have seen where I've said that about a gazzilion times. Pottering is a fault.

Swining is not check work its taken a chance that maybe the rabbit went wherever the hound is looking.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:44 pm

I agree with Joe on this subject. I think he is (IMO) got the right ideal of a rabbit hound. I run a pack of hounds that can pound a rabbit, and when they make a loss, they work the check close and then "reach" out just as Joe tells it. I have noticed that they can usually find the line much faster than another fellow hunter's pack of fast, wild, swinging hounds. I also hate a walkie talkie type of hound. My hounds are on the fast side of med speed )about a 7 ot 8).

desertdog/tom · Post by **desertdog/tom** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:37 pm

joe, you got two dogs one is fast with agood nose and a brain to use what he has. dog two fast good nose and a brain also one is a drifter or swinger one is agood line running dog. whitch one gets from point a to point b first .?dog two right. everone knows a strate line is shorter than a zig zag. these to dog s are the same no f aults in my book . but i have seen mabe three dogs in my life that ran a close line with good fast speed . my point is i personly have seen lots more fast drifting good rabbit hounds. but i am agreeing with you on line control if you compair the too dogs equal. you cannot run a pack that is not equal or dont at less complement each other. but to fault one or the other i can"t see it . it"s what ever one likes or wants i like fast dogs that drift a track if they have too .

pj · Post by pj » Sat Feb 15, 2003 6:00 pm

ive never seen a slow dog that swings....so how can you say swining is a gamble when a dog swings it does it in a circle in in that circle a swinger is gonna find that track not a dog that stayts in one little area.....listen swining is not a fault its a style so is tight check work its a style of dog there is no fault.....as there is swinging dogs that ive seen that cant be beat as sometimes its amazing......im done with this its pretty sad you just cant admit its a style and everyone likes diffrent things

chase · Post by **chase** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:45 am

I am no expert but common sense tells me that there will be a rabbit track with in a few feet of the one they lost Jim S

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:43 am

PJ: Nor have I seen a slow swinger but I've seen plenty of medium speed swingers. Style is mearly the manner the hound runs so as far as that goes your right and both faulty and non faulty methods are styles. You could also be right that swinging is fahionable as this thread would tend to indicate. Nor am I downing fast hounds but just stateing as fact that swinging interfears with the run no matter the foot speed of the hound. Just as line control does not mean slow swinging does not mean fast.

Desertdog: I certainly can understand why one would like a fast hound. Especially if they run hare and don't have to worry about the rabbits keep going to hole. But, why does a fast hound have to be sloppy? I understand that given the choice between a sloppy fast hound or no fast hound folks choose the fast hound. I really do understand that part. BUt why not just breed them fast and accurate? I understand that breeding fast and accurate is much more difficult then breeding fast and not so accurate but it would seem to me the added effort would be worth the rewards. Clearly the fast and accurate hounds that do exist have proven that it is possible so why not "set" that in the hounds.

chase · Post by **chase** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:24 am

Well Said !

tom/ desertdog · Post by **tom/ desertdog** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:53 am

joe, i think you said it right. but isnt drifting or swing a still allso.i am not talken about adog that swings 10yrds one way and back barken his fool head off all the way ,i am talken about driften a couple ft. and not opening till he crosses the line of scent .not med speed i mean fast. my point i posted earlyer, was you cant pack up the to stiles . i am asking you a question here, and giving you my idea. not no law or rule just talken rabbit

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:35 am

Folks I still think the main difference in what we are saying is that Joe is talking about a single dog running and swinging and I'm talking about a pack of dogs running together and all swinging.

In that case, I'm judging the running of the pack, not an individual dog.

None of us wants a dog that continues opening while off the track, but opens quickly when it swings out and picks the track up again.

WE run rabbits like other folks run fox, coyotes, deer,Coon, bear, etc. and beagle Big Pack style.

There are few loses anyway and what there is is quickly recovered in a matter of seconds, not minutes. Sometimes as my friend Ted Peercy says, they LOCK ON and never lose at all, run solid, just continue to gain ground until they pickup the rabbit while at a dead run.

Where we run and hunt, if we had a lose for a minute, thee would be other rabbits jumped by the pack swinging out and we'd have several packs running.

tom/ desertdog · Post by **tom/ desertdog** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 10:50 am

very well said, that was my whole point that i was trying to make. mabe all my ideas come from running fox hounds& and big game in the past. if i was sitten on the porch drinken a cold glass of ice tea on a hot summer night with a bunch of you good beaglers it wouldn"t matter much what stile we were lisning too. but out hunten when it is about 20 or 30 degrees or colder .you can bet what stile i want. john wish you lived a little closer like to see a good pack of fast drifften rabbit hounds running

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 12:44 pm

First of all I never got my hackles up I just tend to disagree with Mr. West. In Mr. West's diffinition any thing that interfers with the run is a "FAULT" then any dog that makes a loss (check) has commited an error that interfers with the forward progress of the run and thus a "FAULTY" hound. The reaching, swinging, or tight check work would then be a style of recovering the loss and not the basis for the "FAULT". Actually the root cause of the swinging, reaching etc would be the loss and not what action or style it takes to procede with the run.

beaglebill · Post by **beaglebill** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:00 pm

I recall going to a field trial in the 50s at the local club. It seemed to me like there was a lot of older men that could just walk along beside there dogs as they were running. Very easy to judge compared to todays arha lp for example but i think they were breeding these dogs for this purpose only. I could still buy a say medium speed rabbit dog however it was probably not bred like the walky talky dogs. I dont think they planned on killin rabbits i think they just liked the idea of being able to watch the dog as it trailed a rabbit. I think the old tops were happy as can be with what they had at the time. It was deffinitely a phase that makes me wonder if this could be a repeat. Will our kids be happy with what we have?