Who should get the most credit for a great dog???

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:41 am

I am amazed at how many handlers out there can speak "Dog". I would love to know how you tell the dog to tighten the line, or work the check from the inside out, or beter yet " Hey stop that back tracking"! I have to get the book or take the course, because I am missing boat.

gus · Post by **gus** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:58 pm

ACOMEAU wrote:I am amazed at how many handlers out there can speak "Dog". I would love to know how you tell the dog to tighten the line, or work the check from the inside out, or beter yet " Hey stop that back tracking"! I have to get the book or take the course, because I am missing boat.

I thought Dr. Dolittle was a fictitious movie character. LOL

randy37 · Post by **randy37** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:21 pm

Ran across a couple coyote hunters today,they where running purebreed beagles,so i asked those guys do those hounds run cotton tails"being that the genetics are there" those guys laughed said they dont even know what a rabbit track is.both sire and dame have titles from akc trials.

We seem to agree on this board that a guy who buys a great hound is just that he is the guy who bought a hound.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:35 pm

randy37 wrote:Ran across a couple coyote hunters today,they where running purebreed beagles,so i asked those guys do those hounds run cotton tails"being that the genetics are there" those guys laughed said they dont even know what a rabbit track is.both sire and dame have titles from akc trials.

We seem to agree on this board that a guy who buys a great hound is just that he is the guy who bought a hound.

My point exactly,you have to teach them to run what you want them to run or they will run everything. Unless you are one of the fortunate ones that have a beagle that never looked at or ran anything but a rabbit. If you take a 6month old hound and shock it for trashing and break it then it can teach its self to run a rabbit,but if you don't break it you WILL have some bad days in the field catching hounds off trash. Some beagles would rather run trash that a rabbit,yes it may teach its self to run a track but it may not be what you want it to run. So you have to train it. Even these highpowered well bread beagles throw some trash runners. I agree they are bread to track and will track something but you have to train them to do what you want,a great hound handles well and runs rabbits well the trainer conditions them to do it.

ACOMEAU · Post by **ACOMEAU** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:06 pm

No one said anything about trash breaking, or introducing the desired game to a dog. We are talking training a dog to do it well. Running game and doing it right can not be taught, it is pre-programmed. With some help a bad dog could possibly become better, but never be great. Any breed of dogs that is genetically programmed to trail game with tounge, can be taught to run what ever you want. I knew an old bear hunter in my area that had a female plott that could smoke a hare. I have a six month old running walker, that is half treeing walker and half running walker, that I intend on running coyotes and fox with and I started her on hare with my beagles.

Incahoots · Post by **Incahoots** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:24 pm

randy37 · Post by **randy37** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:42 pm

I dont think those guys thought that there hounds where running trash,they acted like rabbit tracks where trash. now they breed what they run with succes at what they chase. purbreed beagles on coyotes.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:51 pm

ACOMEAU wrote:No one said anything about trash breaking, or introducing the desired game to a dog. We are talking training a dog to do it well. Running game and doing it right can not be taught, it is pre-programmed. With some help a bad dog could possibly become better, but never be great. Any breed of dogs that is genetically programmed to trail game with tounge, can be taught to run what ever you want. I knew an old bear hunter in my area that had a female plott that could smoke a hare. I have a six month old running walker, that is half treeing walker and half running walker, that I intend on running coyotes and fox with and I started her on hare with my beagles.

I thought we were talking about rabbit dogs,or training hounds to run rabbits. If a bad dog could possibly become better,then couldn't a good dog become great with help?

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:57 am

There's no question that we as handlers can affect how our dog performs, but only as its performance relates to what WE want it to do for US. There is no way we can make a dog better at running rabbits, other than giving him enough opportunity. We can make it easier for us to catch him, or to perform his best according to a particular set of man-made rules for field trialing but we can no more affect his ability to run a rabbit than we can control his coat color, size, conformation or voice. These traits are genetically programmed. Running trash is another situation entirely. We could eventually have hounds that will be naturally trash-free but as long as people continue to force break them and then BREED these faulty hounds we're stuck with this forever. I've heard many folks here excuse everything from backtracking to quitting, but very, very few fault a dog for trashing. If all of us were truly concerned with HUNTING hounds, we would never breed a trash runner. It doesn't have to come with the territory. Before anyone asks- no, my dogs are not all straight. But any that show the desire to run anything but rabbit after the age of about 2 will never be bred while here.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:34 pm

Steve C. wrote:There's no question that we as handlers can affect how our dog performs, but only as its performance relates to what WE want it to do for US. There is no way we can make a dog better at running rabbits, other than giving him enough opportunity. We can make it easier for us to catch him, or to perform his best according to a particular set of man-made rules for field trialing but we can no more affect his ability to run a rabbit than we can control his coat color, size, conformation or voice. These traits are genetically programmed. Running trash is another situation entirely. We could eventually have hounds that will be naturally trash-free but as long as people continue to force break them and then BREED these faulty hounds we're stuck with this forever. I've heard many folks here excuse everything from backtracking to quitting, but very, very few fault a dog for trashing. If all of us were truly concerned with HUNTING hounds, we would never breed a trash runner. It doesn't have to come with the territory. Before anyone asks- no, my dogs are not all straight. But any that show the desire to run anything but rabbit after the age of about 2 will never be bred while here.

I won't breed or keep anything that is trashing after 8 months,if they don't stop by the 3rd time I roast them there given away. I bred 2 hounds last year that never ran off game once one 4 one 6years old,had to break 2 pups off foxes and deer,2 are I think trash free,I hope. Some Beagles may never trash but there is not a bloodline that can boast that its trash free. Breaking a fault that a hound has is not a bad thing,some of the greatest had to be broken off or for something. Its the ones that won't break easy that shouldn't be bread.

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 2:12 pm

Tommy, not much there to argue about. We're essentially saying the same thing. Every hound will make mistakes and some will learn from the correction. Those are not naturally trashy and I too would forgive this a few times while young. While no line of beagles is 100% trashproof, I think you'd agree that there are those who are more or less inclined to be this way. I'd bet a new dog box though that there are just as many or more trashy hounds bred than straight, in effect forcing every beagle buyer to become a trashbreaker. This to me, is the worst fault a dog can have and is too often accepted as "just the way beagles are". We can do better. Sounds like you're doing your part and I congratulate you for it.

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:45 pm

Steve C. said exactly what I said in my very first post and I have had to defend it every since. I will say on one last thing on this topic in the form of a question and then I'm done with it. How's come all you guys that can train rabbit running ability don't have numerous great dogs for sale on here? I would suppose that you could get rich quick with your ability to train running rabbits. I saw one the other day that was for sale for $10,000, maybe it was trained to run rabbits too???

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:14 pm

Steve C. wrote:Tommy, not much there to argue about. We're essentially saying the same thing. Every hound will make mistakes and some will learn from the correction. Those are not naturally trashy and I too would forgive this a few times while young. While no line of beagles is 100% trashproof, I think you'd agree that there are those who are more or less inclined to be this way. I'd bet a new dog box though that there are just as many or more trashy hounds bred than straight, in effect forcing every beagle buyer to become a trashbreaker. This to me, is the worst fault a dog can have and is too often accepted as "just the way beagles are". We can do better. Sounds like you're doing your part and I congratulate you for it.

I agree there are alot more born trash runners that not. I am not saying I can teach a dog to run a rabbit,but I can teach him to only run a rabbit. A trainer can only teach actions not traits. But I still say that a trainer that is willing to put the time can improve a hound in all ways.