Checkwork

[NeilKimbrel7]

I think the broad categorization of how these trials are ran is not fair assessment of the federation. Plenty of good check dogs place, win, and even finish. If you have the best dog on the ground you should get a look. The fast, overrunning, horse racing dogs only create more checks for a good check dog to score off of.

If you have hammer down running why wouldn't a dog constantly driving the rabbit be rewarded more? If you are constantly broke down, the faulty dogs usually eliminate themselves.

[outrider66]

Go run it and find out.

I cant! I measured my fm at a hair over 13in. plus shes hot nosed & and lacks hunt, but she is fast when senting is good ! Do you all realy think the best hunting dogs come
from mid west trialing ?????

[WELLS WOODS]

Neil, a front end dog should win if he is indeed up there under control, but there are a lot of hounds that want the front that can't control it & this causes chaos. I think the judges do a fine job of eliminating the rough hounds, but I do encourage them to get them out early, so you can see which dogs can run the rabbit the right way without so much disruption of a faulty hound destroying the race. Sometimes they wait until the end of the pack to pick them up & it seems to me it would be hard to give the rest of the pack a good look when they're always harking to a rough hound that's picking up the track 50 yards away soon after the breakdown. Other faults should be looked at the same way; backtracking, running mute, swinging, skirting, ghost trailing, popping their mouth through the check, etc. Get the faulty ones out early, then you can see which true rabbit dogs are the best. A hound that can control the rabbit at a high speed & do it right is rare, but fun to trial if you have one, but they must also have the check thing down pat to be a winner.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Outrider66
I wouldn't worry a bit about that female that is just "a hair" over 13".Go ahead and enter her ! The A.K.C.Large Pack on Hare trials and the few Mid-West S.P.O. trials that I've attended have see many "big" LOL 13" hounds !!

[NeilKimbrel7]

I do believe an extremely faulty hound should be eliminated early. However, I also believe a fc shouldn't need a hound removed to shine. Running hit and missed in my opinion is the most overlooked demerit. Looking for those that hang onto it after they get it is just as important as those staying close in the check.

[WELLS WOODS]

Yeah, some dogs just don't have the talent to hang on to the track & drive like other hounds can. That's why you see them learn faulty actions. Maybe a Field Champion has the talent to shine no matter what the other faulty hounds do, but how many true FC's are there out there on average? Maybe 4 or 5 for every 100 dogs at a Mid-West trial or so. I judged FC Blue Banks Pleaser one time years ago & we had a dog still down that was swinger; missing a lot of line to gamble ahead that my judging partner wouldn't agree to pick up for some reason. Well, Pleaser ran the line and still stayed in front of the hound that kept trying to swing in front of him. This dog didn't swing in the first series against average competition, but in the winners pack when he realized he couldn't hang on to the line and drive with Pleaser, he started swinging wide & picking up the track way away from the pack. Eventually he would bobble & Pleaser would come through on the line & be gone again. The dog really started embarrassing himself & the judge that wanted to keep him down. We are out there to judge all the dogs & give them a fair & honest look; not just find the FC's & make sure they win & not worry about the rest of the places. When I judged, I wanted to get every hound placed right from the first series to the end. It's almost impossible for dogs to run a smooth rabbit & have a chance to score the right way until the faulty hounds are eliminated. I was always very careful that I was sure I placed every hound where it should be in the winners pack, from 1st to 9th. I've heard some say I just want to be sure the best dog wins & I don't care where the rest of them place. It shouldn't be that way. If the two judges are disagreeing on say 4th & 5th place dogs, they should go watch another pass on the rabbit & focus on the two dogs they are disagreeing on & which ever one looks the best should get the higher place. Our winners packs these days with all of the different beaglers & hounds out there that have raised the bar concerning talent in our hounds, should run so well & smooth that the rabbit has no chance other than to hole. If this isn't the case, something is wrong. The two most important things a good judge must do is be honest & give all the effort necessary to see enough running in every pack to make quality decisions. After that comes knowledge of houndwork & the rulebook. I was at two trials last year & I hope this is the exception & not the rule; one had total lack of effort on the judges part in my opinion. This should not be tolerated. The other had a dog backtrack 4 or 5 times in front of everyone & the judges in the first series. I know for a fact that this dog made the winners pack & lasted all the way to 6th place. This was a total lack of honesty. Looking at the hounds that won the Mid-West High Hounds last year & the reputation they had & the judges that I know personally that they won & placed under, I'd say the lack of honesty & effort I saw is not the common thing going on in our trials. One of the most textbook running hounds that I can think of right now that I judged was Ron Conroe's FC JR's Top Gun Tyke ( Ranger Dan). He was close & quiet in the check; worked inside out & could find any tough check. When he found it, he came out strong with a fast chop mouth & was careful to be under control of the line & could hold the line so well sometimes you thought he'd never breakdown. When he did, you never heard a peep out of him until he found it & when he opened he could take the track out & do something with it. He never got rattled by faulty packmates or running against a hound that was as good or close to as good as him. He was one of my favorite dogs that I ever judged & thought he was near perfect in his running style. I judged him three times & he won every time although he was challenged once or twice by a nice little male owned by Danny McDaniel out of Hard Rock that also became a FC. That was probably 15 years ago & I saw the same type of talent & running style just last year watching Don Hoog's FCGD Talkabout Gertrude win at South Ky. This eases my mind that the same type of hound that was winning then is still winning now. I just get worried every once in a while not knowing if we are still looking for & awarding the best hounds according to the rulebook across the board. I believe we are, but it never hurts to bring these issues up & discuss them in a friendly manner.

[Ridge View]

Greg could you or would you like to tell everyone what two trials these were you are describing?

[WELLS WOODS]

No, but I will tell you what happened. The one where I thought there was a lack of effort was when the judges judged 2 second series packs in less than 45 minutes total counting getting the packs started with very little running at all when we had plenty of time & rabbits for them to run them hard & get a really good look. The other was as I described, a consistent backtracker that kept destroying the race in plain view of everyone that stayed down in first series & from what I was told she did the same thing in the second series & stayed down. Then finally the judges agreed to pick her up 6th in the winners pack which was ran the next day because I think the judges were arguing over her till dark in the second series on the first day. This stuff doesn't go unnoticed & it gives the Mid-West Federation a bad name when it happens. The last trial I ran in I was picked up in the first series & rightly so by Joe Clark & I can't remember the other judges name. I watched the rest of my pack till the end & thought they gave them a good, long look & the best dogs stayed down that were keeping the rabbit going & running the line in my opinion. Like I said before, I think the lack of effort & honesty I saw were isolated incidents & most judges are giving a good, honest effort. I used to judge & know how people run judges names through the mud sometimes because they were sore losers or for whatever unwarranted reasons so don't think I'm doing that. I just want the Mid-West to keep as a respectable name in the field trial world as possible.

[Pine Lakes]

I do believe an extremely faulty hound should be eliminated early. However, I also believe a fc shouldn't need a hound removed to shine. Running hit and missed in my opinion is the most overlooked demerit. Looking for those that hang onto it after they get it is just as important as those staying close in the check.

Absolutely! There is one thing that hacks me off more than a faulty hound staying down, and that is my hound failing to capitalize on the mistakes made. There are some dogs out there that can score like no other, but have some serious faults too. If the rest of the pack fails to make them look bad then it's hard to blame the judges.

[WELLS WOODS]

I wouldn't keep a hound down with serious faults no matter how much it scores. I'm talking about major faults that consistently cause problems in the race, not minor mistakes here & there. We don't want to get too negative or we'll end up picking the best dogs up.

[Pine Lakes]

Greg, I get what you're saying, but that is something that I cannot control. I need to focus on my hounds and their traits. There is a male with wins now that has got some serious tools like hunt, foot, nose, and a beautiful mouth. He also lays lines down, can get rough, reaches, and is mouthy IMO. Pretty much a clone of his sire and wouldn't last the 1st series if I was judging, but I'm not judging because I don't have the time so I have no platform to complain. It can be frustrating, but my decision to go to a trial is based upon my dog's abilities, or lack thereof, not another hound's faults.

As far as dogs on the front being the only ones winning in the Mid-West it simply isn't true. There are just as many "turn out of the pack" type dogs that won't be in front on a long hard drive winning as any other type. Boomer is an excellent example. I have had recent success with Pine Lakes Skeeter which is the same type/style dog. FC Howard's Bandit, FC Barkcamp's Zohan, FC Noe Him By Ohio Reggie, and FC Spencer's Turbo Babe are more examples that come to mind. Dogs that will probably be toward the middle of a pack on a hard drive, but let them front dogs fumble it and it's time in the classroom. If I took the time, I could look at the list of Mid-West FC's and probably give you 100 examples.

Like Ron said, if you don't like what you see go to another format. I really don't think it will make a difference because anything us humans get involved with turns out f'd up in some kind of manner. I usually figure there will only be one happy person in each class at a trial. The rest of us got screwed! These judges put in a lot of effort with very little gratefulness expressed. I think that they deserve a little more respect even if you don't agree with their results. Just my .02.

[WELLS WOODS]

I agree & if looks like I'm complaining about the Mid-West judging & the hounds finishing as a whole, then you or anyone else have misinterpreted my thoughts. I'm just giving friendly advice to our new judges that probably don't need it, but my intentions are good. I know that line running, turn it out of the pack, check hounds have finished, I put wins on dozens of them & I want it to continue. It's not about me or my dogs, it's about hundreds of guys like you that are spending a lot of time & money getting your hounds ready for Mid-West trials. My thoughts & advice are not from an upset field trialer, it's coming from a veteran judge that cares about the future of the Mid-West. I know most of our judging is very good & up to par & I want to keep it that way.

[ray s]

My thoughts & advice are not from an upset field trialer, it's coming from a veteran judge that cares about the future of the Mid-West.

I think it's a great topic of discussion!!! And, should be discussed and or debated , respectfully, on a public board like this.
Especially with the seasoned judges.

[tom summers]

Been following along and have held off making a comment. I have done more than my fair share of judging the midwest and lp from Ky.. To the U.P.. I cant judge anymore but still try to stay as close as i can to watch the packs and judges. As a whole i think the judges do a very good job. We handlers and the gallery follow along and see a very small percentage compared to the judges so we should not be critical with the comments towards them as it is a thankless job. I can honestly say that i feel i have only gotten a raw deal twice and both of those were alot of years ago. I feel our sport is going to be in trouble in the not so distant future due to the fact we are not getting enough new young judges and we have judges that would like to cut back because of the physical demands but aren't because we need them. I will also say that we have more quality hounds than years past. So iguess that i would suggest to any that wish to criticize that you put on the shoes and have at it.
Tom Summers

[hard on a check]

I think we all agree there's no such thing as a perfect dog,the rulebook does say accomplishment over style it also says pursue to over take the game,every trial is different,the judges jobs are to place the 5 best dogs of that day, "Spring trial buck rabbit heads up running not a lot of breakdowns", "Fall/Winter trial dry leafs,snow on the ground tough scenting with a lot of breakdowns". Two totally different situations,some days those hard hittin flashy front end dogs are gonna be on the table,some days those conservative line runnin turnin/checkin dogs are gonna be on the table,and a lot of times a mixture of both. If a judge understands hounds and knows what he's looking at as long as he's capable of keeping up with them the dogs will show themselves,obviously judging involves give an take,I feel confident when two MidWest judges put their heads together they should get it right,No person is perfect we all make mistakes..Lace em up,give er hell,be honest,an put the 5 best dogs on the table at the end of the day, that's all anyone can ask for.