Over Running/Reaching Question

[rmassella]

Due to poor weather and my daughters swim season, I haven’t run my dogs as much as I had hoped. The dogs haven’t run much since mid January through mid March. I went to a SPO trial this weekend and my female was picked up for over running. She just turned 2 years old in January and did fairly well last year as a derby. She placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and NBQ in four trials.

In the trials that I went to last year, the judges would tell me that my female runs a nice line and works the check well but they never mentioned overrunning. This weekend the judges told me that she overran the line several times, but did not bark over the end. They said that she would snap back to the point of the loss and that she worked the check, but when it got tough in the check she didn’t knuckle down and grind it out, they said she started reaching out (the scenting conditions were not the best). They told me that she honors the other dogs and that she works her way through the pack nicely but that she really wants the front and that she really wants to get to the rabbit (I’m not sure that it helped that she kicked the first rabbit up and had a sight chase, so she got all amped up and carried that through the run). She basically would overrun her nose.

Since last fall, she seems to have gotten a lot more competitive. I ran her all last summer and fall with my other younger female (1.5 years old) that is a little faster, runs a little different style/not as clean (still SPO), and is definitely more competitive.

When I talked to the judges they told me that I should solo the hell out of her and not run her with my younger female or any other dog for a while. They gave two reasons.
1. Solo her a lot so that she has to work the check/grind it out and she has to work on gearing up or down depending on the scenting conditions. She will have to run her own rabbit.
2. Solo her to harden her up so that even if/when she overruns the line she will have the tools to keep the run going.

I plan to solo her a lot, but do y’all think that I blew her up by running her with my other female? Do y’all think solo work will help her better judge the scenting conditions gear up or down when running the line and help her learn to grind it out in the check/not reach so much?

[S.R.Patch]

My buddy had a Indian Hills male that ran really good but would hangup or anchor somewhat in the checks. Some field trials go for alot of style in the hounds. One quote I remember from along time ago said,

I never though a hound looked good in a check, only stupid"

. If your running in trials and hope to win, you have to please the judges. I don't like hounds to waste alot of time in the check, start close and then work out to regain the line quickly. I don't want swinging or large gaps but a somewhat enlarging circle that covers a rabbit sitting up but still doesn't waste time where the scent is covered or doesn't hold.
I remember my friend Jess Conley talking about Dottie working checks on his hounds, he said, if I can get her hunt and checkwork in my hounds, I'll really have something. I took that as a great complement from a good friend. I remember my friend Darrel Shildt talking about taking ole Buckeye out for solo runs, said "he was just a pleasure to take out and listen to him go with his big ole coondog mouth".
I think soloing will help on independence and hone ability. Sometimes young hounds get rattled by pressure and strange packmates all the time, don't know who to trust.
Imho, your hound displayed no fault, only a lack of style the judges were focusing on in the check. Soloing and age may settle her in to this style, I've even seen where after whelping a litter of pups bitches matured and settled into their style. Either way whether she fits the fieldtrial format or not, it sounds like you've got a nice little rabbit hound.
Good luck with her...

[deerhost]

Robert, What is the breeding of your dog? Sometimes when you run them solo for too long they get even more competitive when you put them back in the pack. They get too used to having the line and the rabbit to themselves and dont want to share it. I would run her solo once or twice and then run her with a couple of dogs or brace with dogs more her style once or twice. That may help but ultimatly a dog is going to run like it is breed to run. You really cant change its genetics. Also Pa and NY clubs run the gamit, with some judges lettin them run and get a little loose and some judges that call a dog getting out 10 yards reaching. Learn what judges like which kind of dog and you may get a better look at those trials. I know that sucks but it is the truth......Dh. Inbox me if you need any other help. Im from the north east...

[rmassella]

Thank you for kind words S.R. Patch and Deerhost, she is a nice little female.

My female's pedigree has a lot of SPO Blood (In-line, Postoak and Goerschs', etc). I think that I'll solo her two or three times then run her with my buddies dogs who all run very similar and well with one another. She has become rabbit crazed and gets all amped up. It starts when I get her out of the kennel; she loves to chase rabbits. She was never very competitive until I started running her with her kennel mate mid to late last summer.

MilliesPedigree - 1.jpg (58.29 KiB) Viewed 2038 times

[deerhost]

Robert, judging by the pedigree those are fairly conservative hounds. In no way should they be real hard hitting, rough and reaching out kind of hounds. My bet is that you are running in really conservative trials, in central, south or western PA. Where most judges want a REAL conservative dog that can't go over the line more then a few steps. I bet she is a real nice dog and not reaching very much judging by the way she is breed. Try running her in clubs more north and east in PA where they let them run a little more. I bet you will do much better. Do not listen to every judge they are only describing what they like in that area. I would still solo and then brace and pack her every few time with fogs like her. Don't run her with any real rough crap. Good luck...dh

[Smoke'n Mack]

Robert,

I know you were at my club's trial, I was the Marshal in the big class. If that was your first time trialing in Western PA, take note of how it was ran. That was a Gundog Brace to Small Pack trial. I do know the dogs that placed 1st and 2nd in the little class are bit on the "steppier" side even for a gundog brace trial, especially in Western PA, I also know they've had a ton of rabbit tracks on them this year already. The one female won the Lykens Valley trial the very next day as well, two in a row.

Anyway, just realize your dog probably didn't fit the style real well. Like was said, look elsewhere to take her, she may not have been reaching that much, but then again I wasn't with that class. I was the guy that brought the "branko dogs" to the trial, haha. They loved that. I think my dogs added together weren't on the ground 5 minutes.

[rmassella]

Thanks for the replies. Yep, Smoke'n Mack, I was at the trial, I had a good time, lots of rabbits, nice running grounds, and your club is always hospitable. I feel the judges did a good job of judging last weekend. This was the second time I have run under Stephanie. I feel she is an excellent judge. This was the first time that I ran under Ryan, he seems to be a good, fair judge. Hats off to both of them. Last year at our clubs Labor Day weekend licensed trial, I ran under Stephanie with this same hound. I made second series but did not make the winners pack. Her pack mates that were selected for the winners pack that day finished 1st, 2nd, and 4th.

I definitely agree, she isn't bred to be hard hitting and is on the conservative side. It is crazy how much difference there can be in what a judge likes in the PBGF. Last year I went to a derby trial a little further to the east, I was told that she didn't have quite enough foot that day. I went to another derby trial in Western PA and the judges loved the way she ran. She was crazy good that day turning every check, keeping/holding the line and holding the front most of the run. Then I went to her second licensed trial late last fall again in Western PA and I was told that she runs a nice line and takes the front when she can get it but at times has a little too much foot. She made second series that day but did not make winners pack All of these clubs are within 100 miles of one-another. Six different judges all with some similar and some different opinions of her. One judge at a totally different trial even told me that she would probably excel at Gun Dog Brace because she runs a very nice straight line, that why I thought I would try the GDB to SPO, but I definitely feel that she is more suited for SPO. I guess my biggest concern was that she is overrunning and reaching at the check. My big concern is that she has developed a major fault that will hurt her trialing. May try a trial in Central PA or New York and see how it goes. I like her and the way she runs a lot and I think she could be successful if trialed under the right judges Thanks for all of you help.

[Smoke'n Mack]

If you want to take her to a little harder hitting trial, I suggest getting her to Conemaugh this fall. You'll run against some harder going gundogs out there, and that's what the judges that will be there will like. Our one female won the big female class there a few years ago. The bonus is that Conemaugh is pretty close considering where else you'd have to drive to get her under harder gundog judges.

I'm not sure what pack you were in on Saturday but the scenting in the afternoon was WAY better than in the morning. So if she ran early, she may have needed to reach a little in a check to keep the track going. I don't see anything wrong with that. In my opinion, that beats 6 dogs standing around with their head in the same place trying to smell the rabbit at the point of loss. If you can't smell it there, move out, get me running again, the longer you stand around the colder it gets. I also heard that none of the packs could run once they hit the bottom along our fence down there in the morning, scent is a funny thing.

[rmassella]

I ran in the second pack of the morning. I agree with you. I want a dog that works a check but I also want a hound that has enough brains to realize that it may have to move out from the check to reestablish/keep the line going.