I Hope Somebody Will Have A Opinion On This ??????

[Newt]

I think it depends on where and how you hunt.
Your dogs should match your expectations for where and how you hunt and it should not matter what anyone else thinks.

Thats a fact. If you are breeding for what someone else likes, who runs different game under different conditions, its truly sad.

[warddog]

I'm of the opinion that these two dogs did exactly what they were bred to do. The only judge of opening when the rabbit is up is the man behind the dog. I never could understand how the statement opening before the rabbit was up could even be considered as that rabbit had to be up in order to leave a track for any dog to follow in the first place. I cannot see where that would be something that any breed standard would fault. Who determines what is a cold track, or that the rabbit is up when the dogs move a track to the point of seeing that rabbit? In every hunting situation I have been in over all the years I have hunted with beagles they did their job when they brought the rabbit around to the point of bagging it. I see no bettering of the breed where a man's personal style preference is the judge of any dog being worthy of continuing to reproduce as trials are all about style or they wouldn't need to run behind them to watch everything they are doing. Try doing that in a coon hunt at night and what determines the best hound is the ability to hunt, strike, run and tree their game and accumulate the most points over the time period of the hunt. In my opinion that is what determines a beagle's worthiness as well as it matters not how flashy or good they look being ran behind if they do not put the game on the diner table. YES, I have many things that I personally like BUT that does NOT mean I fault other dogs that do not possess those specific traits nor do I consider mine any better. In the terrain I hunt in I can pretty much tell what my dogs are doing by watching and hearing them as well as the reactions of any other dogs cast with them. I've often wondered how old does a track have to be for it to be considered a cold track and then what determines opening early if in fact those are issues that qualify or disqualify dogs for being candidates for bettering the breed? IMHO I saw not a single thing wrong with those two dogs as far as doing what they were bred to do and as I read they didn't meet the personal taste of many though.

[mcardery2k]

"I never could understand how the statement opening before the rabbit was up could even be considered as that rabbit had to be up in order to leave a track for any dog to follow in the first place."

[/color]
That was the reason for my post. I was trying to show that the rabbit had moved but if I had not seen it we would have never known. I also agree that who is to say what is a hot track. My opinion the dogs did a really good job of moving the rabbit and if they did not bark I would have been very disappointed. To me it was to dogs showing lots of patience at working a rabbit. I think a lot of dogs would have never gotten the rabbit up. Just my opinion. Also I am not a big trialer but the trials I do attend that would have not been a issue as far as a fault. I think it just comes down to we all like different things in dogs. The main objective is to circle the rabbit without losing it. If you can do that then you have a quality dog regardless of what speed.
Mark~

[Blue Chaser]

I think it depends on where and how you hunt.

If I hunted where rabbits were scarce, trailing up a track 20 minutes old would be a plus and I would like q dog that would and could do that.

If I hunted where there were plenty of rabbits, a dog that would work on a 20 minute track would be a negative and I would prefer a dog that would ignore that track and continue looking for a rabbit to jump and run hot. Where there are plenty of rabbits, working up a cold track is a waste of time and effort.

Your dogs should match your expectations for where and how you hunt and it should not matter what anyone else thinks.

My thought here is that while yes, where they picked it up is 20 minutes old it gets newer the further they move. As slow and as short of a distance a rabbit typically covers it shouldn't take more than 100 yards for it to be hot. Heck, the rabbit may have only went 40 and stopped for 20 minutes. In that case just a short distance and you're looking at a hot track.

[Moore Beagles]

Mark
I think your dogs did a Fine Bangup Job on the track. A lot of people love to bang on these Style Beagles with their own opinion of a dog opening Early, which never really bothered me as long as You could count on them to produce the rabbit, Clock or No Clock. impressive that they could pickup and follow a track that old. What I can't tolerate in a field dog is the so-called Wont bark till its up, but cant trail a rabbit when you jump it sometimes. Oh well it was a doe rabbit, Oh well its really Dry, Too much Dew on the Ground, To heavy of a Frost. Trailing a Rabbit in all conditions is what Separates Beagles from Weiner Dogs, yeah and I've seen them run a rabbit too, in fact ran it alot like many of the Dogs I see in competitions today.
In fact I've got a couple similar Bred to yours that can run a rabbit in any conditions, might be tough, slow walk but they can Smell it.!
I run em with several different Style bloodlines and had em on the Ground with a Whole Varity of Bloodlines, and on many days We wouldn't even had a chase without them! They Anchor The Pack. I've watched many of your Videos and The more I see your Beagles run, make Me appreciate What True Nose Power and Good Pack work should look like. I like a Dog that run a Rabbit No excuses...I even Ran one of mine in a Large Pack recently, first Hour when Scent was good He was a middle of The Pack, Then He Started making Some Rear to Front Moves and last Hour& Half Dominated the Pack. Still don't know why they didn't give Him First place, but I'll Settle for 4th. He's not really a Large Pack Dog anyway, But on a Tough Scent Day, they were Anchored to his Backside The last Hour & a Half of a 3+ Hour Run....
Hats off to ya Brother....I know Ya Got it going on... God Bless Ya Love to get together sometime.

[S.R.Patch]

Ya know, if a hounds got such a good nose, I'd expect him to get out of second gear and get it gone. Now I don't mean to be rude but come on, imho, with nose come speed/desire to overtake, I think everyone agrees hounds should regulate speed by scent strength. It just stands to reason if your gonna brag nose, ya oughta have some foot to go with it or else your making much ado over nothing. Those little over-runs with nose power while only in second gear shows me either the nose isn't really there or the transmission is going out.
Now I'm not a hater, I think everyone should have and feed what makes them happy, but when you come on here and say "this is the way it should be done" and others couldn't do this and their running wiener dog"..."I'm gonna pretend I didn't see the rabbit so it's a cold trail", it's getting a little ridiculess.
I guess if you can't say nothing nice you shouldn't say anything at all but ya'll are having no trouble cutting a real rabbit dawg imho in favor of your own personal taste. These two are matched up in style, I'd like to see what happens when you throw in some nose with desire to overtake. Ya can't make a true evaluation when style over rides desire on a matched pair.
I remember when i first took my farm beagles to the coal mines, My dawgs could run them plenty good but they didn't have the upper gears some hounds I found already running there. I still think mine did better rooting under the cover but they were limited in the conformation and desire to overtake the rabbit. I now breed for hounds that are an improvement because I've seen what is possible. jmho,everyone have fun with their hounds.

[likeemfast]

IMO, those hounds are so slow they are always running a 20min old track.

[Newt]

As opposed to one that has no nose and doesn't have a clue there is a rabbit within a quarter of a mile.
You can go to extremes in either direction.
Some dogs run air scent, some run ground scent. A few can run both, however there are more that can't run at all unless they are in a pack.

[warddog]

Here AGAIN we are seeing nothing but personal likes or dislikes. Here's my question, what differs in the ability of any dog to bring it's intended quarry to an end? It isn't but one thing MAN'S opinion. If I take these two dogs and harvest my limit or someone else's dog(s), faster, slower, more mouth, less mouth etc. haven't they performed to what they were put on this earth to do? How does MAN make the judgment of what is good, bad or in-between other than what they personally like. In my days of coon hound trialing, when the lights were off and the hounds were NOT able to be ran behind the judge of the best on that night was who got the most positive points and lack of negative. They struck, ran, opened enough to keep the track alive and ended the track with the correct game seen in a tree so as to be harvested by man. The system merited the hound that did these things first the most consistent in the cast on that night. Funny how one night a certain style dog would win and on a separate night that dog couldn't buy a plus point BUT that very same dog was number one the night before. IMO dogs are dogs and if they do what the breed is bred to do they are all good. Man has a tendency to think he knows what is going on but fact is we positively do NOT know squat as we have never smelled a single scent that these little guys smell, hot, cold, tweedy bird, field mouse or a rabbit. YES, we can all say we have experienced this or that for many years and as soon as one thinks they can guarantee something about their dog(s) they are proven wrong. I will agree there are many things that I like in a dog but I have never owned NOR seen one that possessed every one of them and IMO never will. Just saying that one man's trash is another man's treasure and dogs will be dogs, when you least expect it, expect it in the field. What I keep and feed is what I can live with knowing that there will never be a perfect beagle as that in and of itself is in the eye of the beholder.

[mcardery2k]

Guys all I can say is I have never posted these videos trying to promote that my dogs are better than others. I post them in hopes that you will enjoy them and that they are what is represented as Gun Dog Brace Dogs. I am aware that most guys on this site like a stronger dog and I have never tried to convince anybody that this style dog is better. This is what I enjoy & I hope some of you guys also enjoy watching. I watch tons of videos of the faster dogs and enjoy them. I enjoy the hare hunts about as much as anything and hope to get to do that some day. I will be the first to admit my dogs would probably not be built for running hare nor have the stamina to do the job.
I think this kind of takes care of the nose power question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW7hb1- ... e=youtu.be



Mark~

[rabbitatfarm]

Mark;

Your last post got me thinking; do slower dogs bring more rabbits to the gun? I mean does a super fast dog make a rabbit want to go to ground faster than one that moves "Br'r Rabbit" along at a slower pace. Not trying to hijack the thread, just remembered a line from one of John Madson's books where he wrote that his dog didn't push too hard and sung those rabbits right back to his son.

[WEIR CREEK BEAGLER]

Ya know, if a hounds got such a good nose, I'd expect him to get out of second gear and get it gone. Now I don't mean to be rude but come on, imho, with nose come speed/desire to overtake, I think everyone agrees hounds should regulate speed by scent strength. It just stands to reason if your gonna brag nose, ya oughta have some foot to go with it or else your making much ado over nothing. Those little over-runs with nose power while only in second gear shows me either the nose isn't really there or the transmission is going out.
Now I'm not a hater, I think everyone should have and feed what makes them happy, but when you come on here and say "this is the way it should be done" and others couldn't do this and their running wiener dog"..."I'm gonna pretend I didn't see the rabbit so it's a cold trail", it's getting a little ridiculess.
I guess if you can't say nothing nice you shouldn't say anything at all but ya'll are having no trouble cutting a real rabbit dawg imho in favor of your own personal taste. These two are matched up in style, I'd like to see what happens when you throw in some nose with desire to overtake. Ya can't make a true evaluation when style over rides desire on a matched pair.
I remember when i first took my farm beagles to the coal mines, My dawgs could run them plenty good but they didn't have the upper gears some hounds I found already running there. I still think mine did better rooting under the cover but they were limited in the conformation and desire to overtake the rabbit. I now breed for hounds that are an improvement because I've seen what is possible. jmho,everyone have fun with their hounds.

of course someone with a patch hound would cry

[mcardery2k]

Not sure. I would think they would just run a smaller circle. I know when our dogs run in a pack on a good scent day they seem to push the rabbits a lot further out of their area.
I always show this for you guys who think my dogs are to slow. They can really move it when they have to. I am just happy to get you guys to watch the videos even if you hate them. There must have been something there to keep your attention. My job is to entertain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE018FEi078

[Casey Harner]

I think it depends on where and how you hunt.

If I hunted where rabbits were scarce, trailing up a track 20 minutes old would be a plus and I would like q dog that would and could do that.

If I hunted where there were plenty of rabbits, a dog that would work on a 20 minute track would be a negative and I would prefer a dog that would ignore that track and continue looking for a rabbit to jump and run hot. Where there are plenty of rabbits, working up a cold track is a waste of time and effort.

Your dogs should match your expectations for where and how you hunt and it should not matter what anyone else thinks.

I agree with that.

[mcardery2k]

I have never had the good fortune of having a place with lots of rabbits. If we have a track that might be the only one of the day. Lots of days we may only get two or maybe 3 rabbits in a day so we have to be able to run and not lose the rabbit. That is why you see us hunting with 410 pistols and not making much effort to kill the rabbits. There are days where we are out for hours at a time and never produce a rabbit. Maybe we need some of those dogs that just tear up the brush.
Mark~