A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
CAUSE I SEE THE MID WEST POST ON THE ESPO SITE IS ESPO FAST OR SLOWE I NOW THE MID- WEST SAY THAT SOME AREAS ARE FAST SOME ARE NOT SO FAST PLEASE EXSPLAIN.
I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THEY ALL JUST DON'T RUN TOGETHER IF A DOG CAN HELP CIRCLE THE RABBIT THEN GIVE HIM SOME CREDIT AND THE IF THE DOG MAKES THE PACK GO FASTER THEN GIVE HIM SOME CREDIT BUT WHY HAVE SO MEANY DIFFERENT KINDS WHEN WE ALL WANT TO JUST HEAR THEM RUN AND KILL SOME RABBITS.
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The difference in UBGF and Midwest is human nature. They use the same rule book just ignore the part they don't like.
UBGF puts emphasis on accuracy oi following the track and close check work.
Midwest emphasizes speed and looser check work.
Small pack option (spo). theyare differant formats. Espo is a forum like american beagler and rabbitdogs.net.
Ubgf(united beagle gundog federation)
mid-west
Mab (mid american brace)
gdb (gundog brace)
tcp ( two couple pack).
there could be others, i am no expert and only have limited trial experiance i am just a hunter butas newt said they are all differant interpitations of the akc rule book. You should go on akc website and read it first hand.
most people that belong to and post on the espo board run ubgf style dogs which are typically much slower and have alot more line control as compared to the midwest type of dog. alot of guys that attend our midwest trials here in iowa are also members of the northern michigan hare assoc and and run/own "hare bred" dogs. To put it simply I entered a hare bred dog in a ubgf trial last fall and got picked up in about 3 minutes . Its not my fault the rest of the pack couldnt keep up
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Thumper Jumpin Luck-E-Colt
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Behne's oopsie daisy
Behne's lady
rabbit chaser,
Same thing happened to me back in the 90's. I joined a local club and the first trial I ever entered my hound almost lapped the pack when I was asked if he had warp speed and I replied, yea, he's quick.
He was on the line and they said, yep, he sure is, pick him up.
I asked why, and the judge said, he's running too much rabbit and isn't working with the pack.
I replied, I believe the pack isn't working with him and the pack isn't running enough rabbit!
I can see picking up a hound for hooking, swinging, cheating, causing checks.
To pick up a hound that is on the line, stops, shuts up, picks the check and does all this with speed and quickness is wrong!
This same hound I took to a Midwest trial in Chesaning, MI, ran for two days and placed 4th out of 66 big males entered.
He also champed out in UKC and ARHA, ARHA was a cleaner hound back then.
JMHO, I don't believe you will find a UBGF hound with the grit and stamina it takes to run Midwest much less NMHA.
No doubt, there are some that are rough, but you can place and win with cleaner running hounds that can run with control and know where the check is.
i once entered one of my midwest type hounds (derby dog) in one there UBGF trials he ran amost 20 minutes before he had a check maybe 5 seconds.At that point judge ordered him up said wow what a beast, and I said why did you pic him up he says we like a pack that runs where a blanket could cover him. He then said if I was into shooting rabbits for meat he be the one i'd take. I ask if he hunted said no just like hearing the dogs run. Needless to say if their dogs covered the ground as much as they barked they would be getting a lot done, but needless to say in about 3 seconds the dogs I ran against got blew out the water like a bomb had hit kinda like opening play of the super bowl NOT SURE if all UBGF trials are like this one was but if they are why do they claim to be Gundog Assc. ? Dogs like a bunch of cloned robots not hunting hard they beat the bush with tally ho sticks. Like Pee Wee Herman goofy in MHO. So boring never out of a trot. My gosh make the rabbit runnnn for his lifeee! Answer fast or slow? If I wanted to drill for oil I'd move to Texas.
the dogs i have are bred to run that style . they do not run as you describe. I get picked up most everytime pretty early. I hunt mine and run em year round. they have no troubles jumpin and running a rabbit. We kill a mess of rabbits off em. And dont even own a tally ho stick. they account for their rabbits more than alot of the other bloodlines i have owned.
I went hunting with a guy years ago that I worked with. He bragged on his hounds all the time at work.I didn't take any of mine,he would only run his with dogs he knew.Come to find out later he was big in the UGBF dogs.He had won about everything a guy could and every dog he owned had solid FC's in their peds as far back as you want to go.He got in the briars and jumped the rabbits while the dogs kinda walked around in the open spaces.Once a rabbit was jumped they could run it real well and hardly ever had a check.A few hours into the hunt he started getting mad at me because I wouldn't get in the thick stuff and jump rabbits for his dogs.I left at about lunch time.Those dogs wern't safe around me with a loaded gun in my hands.
Now where is this boundary? Where a Reggie dog beats a shorts pro and vice versa? PA seems to favor a ubgf and down south seems like slow dogs. How far west do I have to go to see akc run to catch style dogs?
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Remmy
Winnie
dont get me wrong i will kick some brush but still dont jump even half the rabbits my dogs do. I dont claim to have great dogs but im happy with em. I run with guys that run pp style dogs and mine are right there with em. they may not always have the front but they get their share of the front and pick up alot of losses. Ive had my share of fast dogs but the ones i had were not satisfactory with all the losses . they must account for their rabbit no matter the speed.
Remmy, PA can go either way when it comes to your Reggie vs Pro question. Generally speaking the clubs in NEPA favor a stronger running dog. I place and win with my hounds consistently in NEPA, New York, Mass. The IBGA is promoting a great hunting dog. My dogs are based off the old DFJ bloodline with outcrosses in Northway, Indian Hills, Adirondack Mtn, and Flat Creek.
One thing I can Guarantee you is all my dogs have excellent hunt; I breed for it. I've judged a good number of trials over the years, and I'm always looking for a great jump dog that has all the tools.
If you want to go to a PA club and see run to catch, the next AKC trial is at Susquehanna Valley Beagle Club. It is the first weekend in March. I'll be there!
most of the clubs in the southeast run the speed 2-4 dogs. big variation you get to the midwest or northeast and southern large pack areas they run a more honest to goodness hunting dog running speed 6 and up and many can run long periods of time without having a lot of losses. someone mentioned like i was talking about their dogs when i never mentioned a blood line so the dog yelps when the rock hits - just facts AKC needs a group true blue rabbit hunters police this situation if they aint got a rabbit dog then the word gundog needs removed. I got a gun for you to use if you need it. i noticed the liitle pow doesnt sound like a real shotgun more like a toy blank gun. tally ho tally ho tally ho ALL the hunters i know say something like Here he is Here he is Get him Get him Get him Now Now Now . Real dogs that are hunted alot see a gun in your hand know it go crazy when they see you with it. That's from knowing the taste of rabbit heads and being a hunting dog. yep DFJ Northway great stuff owned some myself too.If you are getting lapped or blitzed and it's solid running what does that tell you. I dont need to say anything else, or you can ask a rabbit hunter that hunts big woods and growed up cutovers what they want , or someone who hunts hare and cottontail. Love to say wow to a pounding screaming hooked up run not yawn.But your money feed what you want just describe as they run. Sometimes pays to travel see what's in the other states not just in the backyard.
S.P.O. [ Small Pack Option ] is an A.K.C. trialing format just as L.P.H. [Large Pack on Hare] is an A.K.C. trialing format.Little Pack and Proggressive Pack are A.R.H.A. trialing formats,etc.
You asked about the M.W.B.G.F.[Mid-West Beagle Gundog Federation ].The Mid-West Federation clubs usually run their trials under S.P.O. rules [ occasionally one of their clubs will hold a large pack trial ].The members of these clubs and the judges they use at their trials prefer a beagle that runs a pretty clean line and close at the checks but expect him to hunt hard for his rabbit and be able to get up and roll with it when the conditions warrant .Because this is the style of hound that is preferred the judges score them accordingly as they see the rules.It goes without saying that the footier a pack of hounds the more they might not be as close,or as clean or as patient as a pack of beagles that many would consider slow.
The U.B.G.F. [United Beagle Gundog Federation ] also runs their trials using the S.P.O. rule book put out by the A.K.C. The members of these federation clubs and the judges they use prefer a much more conservative hound.One that stays right on the line at all times,works in a very small/tight check area [reaching out even a small amount is considered a big time fault ] and style of running [head down,straight ahead,no side to side ] seems to be a primary focus of these beaglers.Because this is what is important to them they bring in judges that concentrate on those traits in the hounds under their control.This style can not help but be best accomplished by a much slower running more conservative hunting hound.
The Mid-West Federation has what I would call the footier,harder-hitting,run to catch type of hound running under the S.P.O. rules.The U.B.G.F. and probably the Deep South federation clubs have the slower much more conservative hounds running under the same S.P.O. rules
It all comes down to preferences.What is close enough on the line for you? [ drift a track or line straddler ]. What is an acceptable distance for you when a dog is working the check area? [ reaches out or anchors standing on his head ]. How hard does your hound push a rabbit when conditions are good or bad? [ peanut roller/bawl and crawl or windsplitter ]. The rules are the same they are just interpreted according to the preferences that exist at certain federations,clubs,judges,areas of the U.S. and human nature.
IS ESPO FAST OR SLOWE 
. Its not my fault the rest of the pack couldnt keep up 
