Hound speed

[Budd]

"mybeagles wrote"
"I do know it's easier to get a pack of strong medium (6) speed hounds to run smoothly than a pack of fast hounds. I've seen individual fast dogs go smooth but a pack of fast ones is a tall order"

What makes a fast pack of hounds NOT smooth...competiveness or their speed? I think the same could be said about a pack of medium speed hounds. Remove the competiveness out of either pack and they will smoothen out. That's a tall order to find when most everyone solo's there dogs instead of trying to find that weakness so that hound can be eliminated from the breeding program. Not trying to knock soloing cause that's fine if a fella prefers or enjoys soloing there hounds but for the guys looking to run large packs all the time it becomes a little more difficult.

[transman63]

its always been my experience that they run the way they wear bread .

[DINGUS MAN]

Once upon a time I was convinced that a spo (carolina style) could run a rabbit with arha pp, lp, ukc pp,hb....I would debate and argue about it hour after hour.....then I got around some nice dogs that run and place in pp and lp and I found out I was just flat wrong. I'm not saying one style is better than another...that is a personal preference ......but spo (Carolina style ) just can't keep up....it's a train wreck when u run different style dogs together. I've seen it with my own eyes many times. It don't work. Pick a style and speed u like and go with that. Id like to add, that to me, many of the spo (Carolina ) style....do not hunt hard...not saying all but most....why is that?

[BCBeagles]

I have seen borderline hounds(5-6) run with (7-8), but seemed they were pulled more than they should have. Did not really lead to great running.

As said previously by Budd, we eliminated the overly competitive hounds(not any faster than the others) and our running is MUCH better. Not all races internet good...lol. but satisfactory. Some even "smooth" for upper medium speed. Had a nice race Saturday with 4 hounds, hour plus, six times around thru same area and missed the rabbit 5 times...lol. Good race by anyone's standards.

We have these types much more regular without the competitive hounds. We have a couple youngs ones that like the front, but they can run it, BIG difference from the ones that left. They could only handle the front for 100 yards and a cloud of dust as I like to call it...lol.

In answering your question Dave, the little black and tan female my buddy just sold was just the hound you are asking about. True medium with the hussle to run with harder going dogs, but not let it effect her. She would just come into the check and cut them up. Saw her do it many, many times. I believe she was the exception.

I owned other true mediums that caused more issues running uselessly behind the pack. Had lesser dogs at that time and that was a big part of it as well. I would guess just like the really good ones, the ones you are looking for are few and far between. JMO.

take care and good runnning!

[NorWester1]

Had a 100 guys tell me about the hound that runs fast in good conditions and slow in bad conditions I just haven't seen such a hound.....what I have seen is fast hounds that ease up a little but still way to rough to run in tough conditions...I've also seen the medium speed hounds gear up a bit in good conditions but not fast enough to get to the front of fast pack.

I do know it's easier to get a pack of strong medium (6) speed hounds to run smoothly than a pack of fast hounds. I've seen individual fast dogs go smooth but a pack of fast ones is a tall order.

In any event, this may be a lesson in futility but in the end I should have a better understanding of the effects of genetics vs training environment

I tend to agree. You've got as much chance at making a fast pack slow down in tough conditions as you do making a brace style pack run "large pack on hare" style, fast in good conditions. It's the way they are bred.
The only exception would be deep snow.....that slows everyone down. Every fall once things freeze over and before we get a foot or two of snow on the ground my pack is a train wreck out there.....they just won't slow down enough. Once deeper snow hits......it's a whole new ball game. Then you can mix and match easily. I've got a couple of older hounds that can longer keep up with the younger dogs in ideal conditions....but they have no trouble now. Deeper snow will do that.

What i'm really curious about is if a more medium speed pack in good conditions will show the same drive in the deeper snow and cold as a faster style of hound pack.

[mybeagles]

What i'm really curious about is if a more medium speed pack in good conditions will show the same drive in the deeper snow and cold as a faster style of hound pack.

Keith in my experience the answer would be no. I think faster dogs do better on hare and hunt wider. Medium speed dogs hunt closer and with the handler better to work brush and briers better. Don't think one style is better jump dog, just different. I can see some medium speed SPO dogs following in your footsteps in deep snow.

Pete,
The Medium speed dogs are much more pack oriented almost to a fault. Some will not even break pack to go with a hound that lines out with rabbit in favor of staying with the pack. Fast dogs are generally more competitive and more independent leading to rough running pack. More difficult to eliminate all the over competetive hounds out of fast pack and the margin on error is greater at faster pace. To use your analogy, turning a corner is much harder at 60 mph than 30 mph.

[NorWester1]

Dave, I hope that isn't the case....lol....I've got a bitch here that is basically half "large pack on hare" bred & half what most would consider a fast UBGF style.
For years this bitch has done much of what BC describes in his post....haul ass to keep up but you could have named her "janitor" because of all the cleaning up that bitch did behind those other rough bastards of mine. She made a living doing that. We've bred her back to more conservative faster bred dogs hoping to get the best of both worlds....the results have been positive but we'll see how it all pans out in the end.

Always been curious as to how a pack like Mark Carders would do up here....they appear to have the nose.

[BCBeagles]

I ran with hounds owned by a gentleman in Maine, Stan of Boom Hill Kennels. He has done what you have done Norwester.

I was quite impressed with his hounds, big, big nose, good solid speed. They ran right up with our faster hounds, at times on front of them. They really could stroke a hare, again on good conditions not snowy ground, but it was dry and windy so conditions were less than ideal.

If I did not like a harder hitting hound out of the check Stan's hounds were nice, very nice. Ran with a hound called Scooter and a young one called general, they could flat run the crap out of a hare!! Smooth and close, they did it right.

Closer hunting, but hunted well. They could trail a hare up and get it going in short order. I only had one hound with the nose to trail up one with them and she is double shooter, she has a nice nose.

Like I said we run a decent speed hound. They performed well beyond our expectations, but I would have loved to see Scooter and General on a big snow, bet they could have schooled ours!!!

[mybeagles]

Mark has mentioned coming up to run hare. I would love to see as well.

I have been watching several UBGF hounds run and their "culls" are the ones I like. The ones a little to fast to stay with pack and hunt little wider.

I'm fed up with fast dogs.....been running on ice last two weeks and unless dogs walk the track they can't keep it going. Everyone else must get the fast ones "that can"...I always had the fast ones "that couldn't".

Lots of slower dogs that can't do it either but it's more managable...

If I did not like a harder hitting hound out of the check Stan's hounds were nice, very nice.

BC,
I've come to the conclusion that the only advantage to being fast out of the check is for competition. Many of the hounds that are fast out of the check are gambling and when they gamble correctly they look very good and when they gamble incorrectly people look the other way.

I've judged numerous big males in the field trials that I would like to shoot. They would gamble out of the check area and only be accurate about 30% of the time. My judging partner would often have them as the high-scoring hound and I was ready to pick them up. Lots of time sorting it all out. Owners of these hounds sitting in the gallery thinking their hounds were dominating when in fact they were destroying the race.

[NorWester1]

Mybeagles wrote,

I have been watching several UBGF hounds run and their "culls" are the ones I like. The ones a little to fast to stay with pack and hunt little wider.

You should call Bud....he's got some funny stories from running with his cousin in Indiana who's a UBGF fanatic.

I'm fed up with fast dogs.....been running on ice last two weeks and unless dogs walk the track they can't keep it going. Everyone else must get the fast ones "that can"...I always had the fast ones "that couldn't".

I hear that....lol....Speed aside however, one trait that I really favour these days is a hound with a head down chop mouth, not loosing contact with the line. You can get away with much less nose than you might think in tougher going just because you don't lose the line as much. If you run with a head high, bawl in tough conditions you're gonna need a nose from another world just to fix all the screwin up you do.
It's one of those common demoninator type things....all the most effecient hounds I've seen in tough going tend to carry this trait.

[mybeagles]

Agree...

Time to go try and get my hound that can't trained to be a hound that can!

[Casey Harner]

Ran with a friend in the coal mines two days ago. The wind was blowing a good 30 mph plus it was 20 degrees out. He hounds did an outstanding job for the most part. The hounds we were running are clean for the most part, when they came to a check they had a little rougher time picking it back up, a swinger would of been nice at that time. The running was pretty good for the conditions we were in.


When they hit the lower part of the property, seemed like the running intensified, but when they hit the hills, they seemed to slow it down a little and had to work it out.



I got a two 1/2 year old female named Blaze who seems to me can walk out a tough track. She worked a rabbit out yesterday at Patoka Lake. The rabbit came down this small hill and then went back up over its tracks and sat down. Blaze came down the hill and worked the track for a several minutes and went into a sight chase. We had two other dogs on the ground, Blaze was the oldest.

[Budd]

Mybeagles, my brother Rick has two that are kind of what I am looking for a pack of. Halo (butkus/Sadie) and Hunter (littermate to CJ Walker). They are very close to what I am looking for with just a tad more speed. I have the Hunter dog up here now and he has good nose, thinking hard of breeding Sally (shooter/dihna) to him.
He has ran both with UBGF FC's and those fellas are really impressed with them, just wished they were a tad slower , but close enough one UBGF judge is wanting to breed to Halo.

[BCBeagles]

Dave,

I agree, believe me I have have had those hounds in the past. I want them to work the check closely, more methodically, if you will.

I am still working on finding what gives me the best race. I enjoy competition, but don't know if any of my hounds will have the quickness out of the check the Midwest desires. I don't care though, they can run a decent rabbit... that "exploding out of the check" is the main reason hounds over run the ends on a regular basis. Been there and done that.....

Hope you find what makes you want to go everyday!!!

[Casey Harner]

Lack of brains and some pressure from pack mates are reasons behind dogs running over the ends. But thats my two cents.