brace question

[Pine Lakes]

Boredom and astonishment have led me to reply. I've been to all kinds of formats and registries since about 1992. The videos shown aren't the style of dog I prefer to run. With that being said, I can't believe they didn't "mark" any lines with the open country, the number of people, and the pace of the hounds. To assume they didn't is probably wrong. There are some issues with the AKC rules and those hounds in the video, but then again it must be open to interpretation or there wouldn't be so many different styles of hounds. In any format of AKC skirting is a fault and could be severe enough to be eliminated. Simply, it is cheating and if the dog guilty of it shows the desire to repeat the offense then it should be eliminated. I don't run in the UBGF or any association with that style of hound, but I don't wish any ill will towards them and they don't have to justify anything to me. I have run in several Large Pack On Hare trials and feel confident enough to say that not one of them was a good test to find the best rabbit hound. They are nothing short of endurance races and no 5 human beings can accurately judge 40+ hounds blistering a hare without waiting for marked lines. The argument could be made that what you accuse the men in the vids of not seeing is happening between marked lines in a LP trial. I still enjoyed them and will go again if time allows and they too do not have to justify anything to me.

INCOMPETENCE IS THROUGH THE ROOF IN THIS BEAGLE WORLD!!! Iam DONE wid this topic as its a waste of my time to talk to u fellows that dont think ya need a mark line!!!

take Care,
Harry Snow Jr.

Quit acting like a little child and please point to the sentence in my post that states you don't need to have a marked line. It was your ignorant rant that persuaded me into commenting, now you're going to throw a temper tantrum and not discuss it any further? The fact is that no association, format, or style is perfect, but you insist on being critical of something that you are not involved in(and weren't there to witness) leads me to believe that you were looking to "stir things up". I certainly wouldn't call some of the folks you quoted as incompetant.

You take care also,
Chip Davis

[Farm dog]

Isn't it funny how Harry begged for people to answer and after they got tired of the crap, he is now done with the topic. Good, glad that is all it took.
Bryan Bush

[mcardery2k]

Earl ...... First off I appreciate you defending my dogs but I am ok with the negative post. At least it got their attention enough to post about them. I sure am glad that I don't own dogs that I could not tell if they were running off game or not.
As far as a marked line we probably saw the rabbit a half dozen times
during the run. I still can't understand why you feel the need to see the rabbit. You keep saying if you were hunting and I would agree that if I were going to shoot the rabbit I would like to see it. I think you asked me how many rabbits we killed last year. For us it is not about how many rabbits but how much time we spent with the dogs in the woods. I averaged about 5 days a week hunting in all kinds of weather conditions and that would be with the same dogs we trial.

[snowhound]

Interesting discussion touching on a subject very timely.
We saw a trial in Upper Mich. a few years back, a 13 inch male class. Watched a well known dog in amazement running an imaginary rabbit and go on to win the trial. This dog would do this time and again, even make imaginary checks. He was judged nearly entirely on ghost running. One of the judges comments: " He was the only one who could smell the rabbit, even though we never saw the rabbit".
That dog went on to become a F.C. IF you were to take a dog such as that out hunting, you`d never shoot a rabbit. And THAT is what running dogs should be all about in the end. We try to simulate hunting as well as we can. And that is exactly also how the dogs should be judged, no more and no less. Unfortunately there are too many people judging who never pick up a gun. If you did, you would know that accomplishment ALWAYS trumps style. By giving dogs are described above wins & places, his genetics will now be furthered, to the detriment of beagles. Gunners will buy such dogs, thinking they`ll get a good one. And that is why so many gunners, and true hunters would rather not have anything to do with field trials.
Without marked lines, it is impossible to judge the better dog. YOu have to know how the dog got to the front. That means, you have to go into the bush to judge the dogs when they have a check. It is plain lazy judging, doing it from the path, or only by voice. Now we have GPS. Big deal. Unless the rabbit also has a GPS collar, one has absolutely no idea how good the dog is. Yet, I have people calling and telling me what a wonderful invention it is to see how the dogs are running!!!. We don`t have them, and we won`t. We do it the old fashioned way. Get off our iron horse ( quads), get our boots dirty, get our pants dirty, get woodticks on us, but.... we see the dogs, and know what they do.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[Competent]

Thanks for that post snowhound!! U cldnt have said it any better/clearer!!

Accomplishment over Style!! Run ta Catch!!!

Ur pencil is ur shotgun!!!

Harry Snow Jr

[craigmcm]

I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. In a LRG Pack trial arent we looking for the dog who comes through on the line first time, after time, after time, running a marked line, that the judges saw? How long do you see these dogs? 10 seconds? 20 Maybe?

I run gundog brace. I judge a lot of trials. I have taken my judges seminar, along with the advanced seminar. For me, how do you guys know who is doing what in a LRG pack trial without following the dogs, and only seeing them for seconds at a time? How do you know which dog is showing good qualities found in the AKC Rulebook for brace and SPO, such as proper use of voice, adaptability, patience, determination, independence, cooperation, and intelligence? How do you know which dogs are showing bad qualities found in a dog, also found in the AKC Rulebook for gundog brace and SPO? These faults are quitting, backtracking, ghost trailing, pottering, babbling, swinging, skirting, leaving checks, running mute, tightness of mouth, racing, running hit or miss, lack of independence, and bounding off. When your judges see the marked line they may see the dogs for a few seconds and that's it. Its not enough to determine all these traits. All youre judging is which dog comes through first, accurately. What about all the other stuff I listed? You don't see the dogs long enough to judge that!!! We brace and SPO judges are looking for those things. Why argue about a format you know nothing about?