Big Dogs .Just curious ?

[Joseph J Murphy]

KJohn :
Thanks for responding .So the big dog beats the little dog every single time if its heads up running ? When you run your small females with your big males ,how far are they usually behind ?

[NeilKimbrel7]

In a scoring system like little pack id say size has nothin to do with it. Besides being beat legitimately i feel like a decent running dog that has some xtra bs has beat me more than any big dogs. However, I think in a format like akc where style is a concern I think it does matter. With everything else being equal, nose, brains, heart, etc I do feel a bigger dog has an advantage. At one point most people thought this or there wouldnt be 13" and 15" classes. The big dog doesnt always win because there are many variables that change each race. Also someone that puts size above being the most complete dog in their breeding promgram could be a reason smaller dogs can beat the bigger ones sometimes. Ive never measured a dog and probably never will. However I find it hard to wrap my head around how some people approve of runnin oversized dogs and frown on a dog for cheating when in fact running an oversized dog is cheating. To me, there are faults and then there are stylistic deficiencies when scoring minus. A fault ruins a race imo and a stylistic deficiencies are forms of cheating. Examples of faults are over running, back tracking, laying false lines because they cause down time. Skirting, reaching, etc are cheaters and should be demerrited but the race doesnt stop. These are strictly my opinions and they are what I go off when I run at home. That being said, im suprised little pack (an anything goes) format cares how big dogs are. The rules are the rules tho and it would not hurt my feelings if someone measured my dog. I do hate how the 3x measuring over rule is tho.

On another note, I wonder if its integrity in the sport that has changed or if the sport is just trying to evolve. 6 years ago I knew some guys in progressive pack that took one of my buddies dogs on trial. He was a big male bred tadpole x indian hills. They said he could run a rabbit as good and fast as any dog they had seen. However when the measured him honestly they consistantly got 15 1/8 and did not buy the dog because they wanted him to trial. I also read on brankos website where the best hound they ever owned was conman. He was only trialed a couple times they said because they felt he got too big and measured 15 1/8- 15 1/4. Just some food for thought.

[kjohn2hunt]

KJohn :
Thanks for responding .So the big dog beats the little dog every single time if its heads up running ? When you run your small females with your big males ,how far are they usually behind ?

In thick cover my females are hard to handle, but in open, heads up running, Jack will be 40 to 50 yards ahead. Alot of the times he has the check before they ever get to the check. My experience is that in a trail the judge like the fast dog and the little dog sometimes is the better dog and running it correctly and the doesnt get looked at. I was at a trail last year and my female guided the pack around from the middle of the pack and the 2 dogs up front were blowing out of the check one way and my female would go the other and they would swing into her and take the lead. They got the checks and she got a zero. The 2 dogs should have minused out for pulling out of the check, but you win some and lose some.

[mike crabtree]

1/8" aint gonna beat u but a couple inches sure can. There are some super nice small dogs out there , but anybody that thinks a 16" inch dog doesnt have an advantage on a 14" inch dog needs to get off the tailgate and foller the dogs a little more .

[kjohn2hunt]

Amen Mike well stated.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

If size mattered I would probaly be divorced . As others said I been beat and yes by a better hound, Osbornes Spade drug me around Indiana years ago, but he was also fast as crap and they were making huge circles. Great dogs will make other hounds gamble to keep up, big dogs that are great will smoke a pack if the running is to there advantage.
Jmho. Jimbo.

[Joseph J Murphy]

It's not that I think that the bigger dog never has and advantage it's just that I don't think it affects the outcome of a cast very often.If you take a 12 inch dog and a 15 inch dog with equal ability and their is heads up running the whole cast then I can see where the bigger dog has an advantage.However I have very very rarely saw this.overwhelmingly in the casts I have been on the dogs ability has been the deciding factor rather than size.I sure hope I am right because my Dad as a little 12 inch male I am gonna unleash on the world next spring or fall.

[Joseph J Murphy]

Mike :
You have been running for a good while ,how many times has size caused you to either win or lose a cast?

[Alabama John]

What you are running has more to do with it than size.
That Spade dog was BIG, looked like 17 inches to me and in open country was fast. We run in open country with some water standing and a big fast dog can run with his head up and full out.
Like some have already said, put those same dogs in thick stuff like the folks I know run in Tennessee and the smaller dog will make them look foolish trying to follow a dog running under them in the thick stuff. little dog running the path cleared by rabbits in the thick stuff and the big dog having to bulldoze a path so most will come out and try to run on top.

[S.R.Patch]

I sent some hounds down to Georgia yrs ago, they were not oversized. The fellow called back and said these hound had a gear that his hounds didn't have and they ran with their heads up. Style and ability, smart and not so smart, desire to catch or contentment to follow, size only for terrain and game. The limit was set for what was felt adequate for sport, not to overmatch the intended game, they didn't want to catch the rabbit before good sport was shown if it was possible.
The fountainhead from where all our beagles came is a 16" limit but cotton tail is not a sporting game over there, so it can't be ignored that size above our limit is in their genes. 14-16" hounds can run well together, but a poorly made one of either size will pay the price to keep up...jmho

[Joseph J Murphy]

Nice post Patch !

[mybeagles]

As a judge I see the advantage of a bigger dog has more to do with holding position in the pack and pushing smaller dogs out of the check. The intimidation factor of a much larger hound. A 20lb dog can get pushed to the outside of a pack of 40lb dogs. A big dog can push their way to front but a smaller dog must be much faster or go around.

In AKC many try to get their 13-14" hounds in the 13" class. Wonder why?

Regardless of the perceived or actual advantage, the issue is the disregard for the rule book. Whether or not someone thinks size matters is not the issue. If someone doesn't care about the 3 minute rule to produce a rabbit doesn't mean you start giving 3 min 30 sec because you don't think 30 sec will beat you.

Very ironic to me the attempts to shame the guy following the rules too close. I measured two 15" females out of the winners pack last weekend @ 15.25". Do I think there size made a difference, doesn't matter what I think the rule is 15".
I'm sure those two handlers think I'm the devil. That doesn't matter either. The bubble dog that won the trial might think differently?

[foxxy]

no one has said they got beat by a big dog yet

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

I've lost once I know of--- well I don't know it for sure but it was planned for, that I know...

My female is right at 14 inches and stays pretty close to the line for a ukc dog and she picks up a ton of checks at trials and has a decent foot. Anyways, the place I had trialed at several times knew that and I drew out with a hunting judge who had 15in males that was ridiculously fast but sucked at everything else..

When the cast started some guy says, I bet he takes you to ____________ spot because its wide open with little to no brush so he can score lines and you can't keep up. the judge normally had a different spot he would run at for his other dogs..

Anyway, his dog was arguably the fastest dog I have ever seen run. He would get on a straightaway and be 60-80 yards ahead of my dog and the rest of cast he would get the line first almost every time and then lose the rabbit the second it turned, our other dogs would pick it up but scoring 20pts all day verses 100 pts isn't going to win and you only get those points if its been over a minute since a dog barked.

I guess you could argue we got beat by speed instead of size though..

[Two Big]

Why doesn't one of these divisions have an all size purebred beagle class and leave this 15" breed standard for the bench dogs? Most everyone seems to agree that size doesn't matter.